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Thread: Telugu castes haplogroup distribution

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    1/50 L among top 50 male relatives with South Indian names (Nambiars or Nairs dont always have caste names/identifiers). R1a dominates (50%) followed by small distributions of other common South Indian y-lineages, H, J, R2, Q but literally 1 L suggesting that it is a minor or assimilated lineage in my group
    It may be the case that a founder effect bottlenecked your L-M27 lineage. Punjabi Jatt Sikhs have very small levels of R2a(xL295) (I've estimated this at 1.7% of the Punjabi Jatt Sikh male population) - but the general distribution of R2a(xL295) is consistent with the region occupied by Punjabi Jatt Sikhs, suggesting that it's was existent at the beginning of our ethnogenesis, but must've been bottlenecked at some point before or after said ethnogenesis. L-M27 geographically reaches high levels in the region you're from, so I personally think it's more likely that you have a minority lineage rather than an assimilated one.

    Let me know your thoughts on my guess.
    Last edited by aaronbee2010; 06-11-2019 at 11:13 PM.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-SK2142 > A26339 - M5a1a
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-Z2109 > Y84821 - U7a3a
    * MGMs F (?): L-M22 > M357 - ?
    * PGMs F (?): Q-F1096 > F4747 - ?
    * MGMs MGF (?): R1a-Z93 > Y7 - ?

    Friends Haplos:
    * North Moroccan Berber: E-M35 > M81 - R0
    * Han Chinese: O-M117 > F1531 - M7e
    * Gujarati Lohana (?): T-Y11151 > Y13290 - R30b1

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    It may be the case that a founder effect bottlenecked your L-M27 lineage. Punjabi Jatt Sikhs have very small levels of R2a(xL295) (I've estimated this at 1.7% of the Punjabi Jatt Sikh male population) - but the general distribution of R2a(xL295) is consistent with the region occupied by Punjabi Jatt Sikhs, suggesting that it's was existent at the beginning of our ethnogenesis, but must've been bottlenecked at some point before or after said ethnogenesis. L-M27 geographically reaches high levels in the region you're from, so I personally think it's more likely that you have a minority lineage rather than an assimilated one.

    Let me know your thoughts on my guess.
    Nair y-dna is unusually r1a in contrast to the region is what i'm trying to say (also ive only seen one other L Nair). Which is why I suspect my n=1 is assimilated from the region, if thats what you mean

    L1a1 has its highest levels in the Baloch, particularly the Afghan Baloch (likely founder effect)

    The only study ive seen where its high (within the region) is among Syrian Christians but not sure how big the sample size was. R2a and H1a (much higher) would likely be higher if I had to guess

    Data on Malabar coast y-haps specifically is unavailable but there are a couple of images I've seen:

    L (likely L1a1) - peaks in Maharashtra and Karnataka outside a weird circle in Mid-Pakistan according to this image

    Lines up with Konkanasth Brahmin L levels i guess but nothing more to corroborate it - it shows the Malabar coast as low L



    This one from wiki says the Malabar coast is high L but the image credits is 'Own work' and there is no Kerala caste data to corroborate it on the wiki page, not one mention of 'Kerala' or 'Malabar' either

    Last edited by bmoney; 06-12-2019 at 01:42 AM.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Very interesting. The spread of Y-L is quite surprising - Bihar, Bengal, Orissa etc. have very little. It is strong on the west coast but minimal in Nairs. And in Nambuthiris?


    "HGs L1-M76 and H1-M52 have peak variance distributions in the Maharashtra region in coastal western India.
    Other lineages (F*-M89; H2-APT) have higher variance
    patterns in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh near coastal
    eastern India. Alternatively, the H-M69* and O2a-M95
    HGs display higher variances in northeastern India and
    the West Bengal region, respectively. These two HGs also
    display significant correlations with latitude and longitude, respectively (table 10). Lastly, HG J2b2-M241–
    related microsatellite variance is higher in Uttar Pradesh
    near the border of Nepal. It should be noted that numerous Mesolithic sites have been observed in this region"






    R1a1 at 50% is also a pretty high number - did the Nairs spread R1a1 in the terai (Nanyadev period) or was it the other way around (Gupta period)?
    Are these L657?

    "According to the Vamshavalis of Nepal, after Nanyadeva of Karnataka conquered northern Bihar; he established his capital at Simraungarh. According to an inscription discovered at Simraungarh,4 this event took place in 1019 Shaka era (1097 A.D) ... The verse containing the date in the Simraugarh inscription as published in the Sahitya reads as follows: ''Nanendu-Shunya-Shashi-Sammita-Shakavarshe''. This words, translated into figures, refer to Nanda (9), Indu (1), Shunya (0) and Shashi), or 1019 Shaka ...

    In this inscription of 1124 A.D. and 1127 A.D., Vikramaditya VI claimed to have conquered Anga, Banga, Kalinga, Gaur, Magadha and Nepal. Someshwara III (1128-38 A.D), in one of his inscriptions, claimed that he had placed his feet on the heads of the Kings of Andhra, Dravina, [….] and Nepal. His Minister, Vijjala (1145-67 A.D) claimed to have conquered Banga, Kalinga, Magadh and Nepal. Soma, son of Vijjala, similarly claimed to have conquered Nepal and Kalinga ...

    The authors of the Vamshavalis therefore gave the imaginary story of Nanyadeva having conquered an ruled over Bhadgaun. Similarly, the story that the Nairs of the south came to Nepal along with Nanyadeva was due to the similarity between the terms Nepal or Newar and Nair. The Vamshavalis contain many such fanciful accounts. The truth they contain is meager. It is limited to the fact that Nanyadeva, who belonged to Karnataka in the south, entered into Simraungarh in south Nepal. The rest is more imagination."
    Yes its mostly fanciful speculation from Brahmin accounts (Keralolpathi, Grama Padathi) centuries after the fact - which also justifies Brahmin dominance as it describes Kerala as god-given land retrieved from the sea from Parshuram. The one Bunt sample we have scores most similar to Kurmi and Lambadi (Banjara) on Harappa which could support a UP low caste origin as per texts

    I suspect that the Nambudiris will have a high R1a/R2a ratio of y-haps, we have 0 y results but @vishankar is currently getting a y-analysis done for one of the Nambudiri samples he procured

    Keralolpathi is the history of Tulu people the Bunt (community) and Aryan Brahmins from Ahichatra and not the history of Dravidian people of Kerala who descend from Chera Dynasty. The Naga people (Nairs/Bunt (community) and the Namboothiris originally a subgroup of Tuluva Brahmins) who who might have invaded Kerala at the end of Tamil Chera Dynasty of Villavar people. Keralolpathi describes the history of Nair/Bunt (community)s and Tuluva Brahmins (Namboothiris and Shivalli Brahmins) and their migration from Indo-Nepalese border to Karnataka during the rule of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 AD.Similar accounts are found in Gramapaddati,the records kept by Tulu Brahmins of Karnataka.Keralolpathi claims that a Tulunadu invader brother of Tulunadu king Kavirajasinghan send by Krishnarayar,Krishna III (939 – 967 C.E.) of the the Rashtrakuta Dynasty invaded Kerala with 350000 strong Nair army led by Padamala Nair.

    Gokarnam in the Uttara Kannada district the original homeland of Tulubrahmins after their arrival from Ahichatram is mentioned as a integral part of Kerala.However though Kerala was briefly occupied by various Karnataka rulers only Tamil Chera Dynasty ruled Kerala till 1100 AD and they practised Patrilineal descendency. Matriarchy practised by the Nagas of Karnataka,(Bunt (community)) reached only after the fall of Chera Kingdom. But after the invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310, all the Tamil Patriarchal Tamil dynasties of Kerala were replaced by Tulu dynastes of Bunt (community) who practised Matriarchy and wrote with Tulu Script.

    Incidentally Malayalam script is closer to Tulu script (Tigalari, used before Kannada script was adopted) than to Tamil (which its linguistically related more to)

    Re Haplogroup L - Majus analysis of the Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System. PLoS ONE 2012. mentions Sindh as the centre of differentiation and low L variance in South India, suggesting origins further north

    Haplogroup L is an important South Asian lineage with penetration in West and Central Asia and a center of gravity around Sindh (Pakistan), although it is also very common in West and South India.

    In Tamil Nadu L1a (L1 in the table) is common among nearly all sampled populations with peak among the dry land farmers' class.

    Instead L1c (formerly L3) is relatively rare, peaking among the Scheduled Castes class. No mention is made of any other L.

    Both clades show low variance in the region (0.41 and 0.22 respectively), consistent with their origin being further North.


    Re L657 - not sure, i only have 23andme level y-hap information - i can ask a close relative to get deep y-tested

    Will Morley y-predictor be enough to predict L657? in which case its free
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-12-2019 at 02:39 AM.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    ...

    Re L657 - not sure, i only have 23andme level y-hap information - i can ask a close relative to get deep y-tested

    Will Morley y-predictor be enough to predict L657? in which case its free
    If you point me to their STRs (if available), I should be able to predict with reasonable accuracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    If you point me to their STRs (if available), I should be able to predict with reasonable accuracy.
    vishankar should be able to provide you with his?

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  10. #46
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    "L is high among the Some Vellalas, Some Kammas who also claim Naga vamsa & have Naga names. Bunts also claim that. The ancient Nagas might have had initially established relationship with Yadavas & settled among them. Maybe Nagas were initially part of Yadavas & later established separate from them during post Saka boom time when central authority of Guptas was down in North India. Even in South India Naga tribes around chennai & Nellore were close to Yadu tribes. Pallav kingdom later took over these Nagas which is shown in many ancient inscriptions. In case of Kamma & Vellala since they formed tighter community in late medieval period under cholas & vijaynagar the earlier naga lineages were all lost."

    Were the Nagas really an established people, and not merely a mythical creature in Hindu-Buddhist mythology.

    What are the Naga tribes around Chennai and Vellore?

    As far as I can ascertain from Tamil literature, the Nagas of Manimekalai appear to be a mythical population (savages).

    Also having the name Naga does not mean its a separate ethnic group, it was a popular name on its own in the ancient period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid View Post
    "L is high among the Some Vellalas, Some Kammas who also claim Naga vamsa & have Naga names. Bunts also claim that. The ancient Nagas might have had initially established relationship with Yadavas & settled among them. Maybe Nagas were initially part of Yadavas & later established separate from them during post Saka boom time when central authority of Guptas was down in North India. Even in South India Naga tribes around chennai & Nellore were close to Yadu tribes. Pallav kingdom later took over these Nagas which is shown in many ancient inscriptions. In case of Kamma & Vellala since they formed tighter community in late medieval period under cholas & vijaynagar the earlier naga lineages were all lost."

    Were the Nagas really an established people, and not merely a mythical creature in Hindu-Buddhist mythology.

    What are the Naga tribes around Chennai and Vellore?

    As far as I can ascertain from Tamil literature, the Nagas of Manimekalai appear to be a mythical population (savages).

    Also having the name Naga does not mean its a separate ethnic group, it was a popular name on its own in the ancient period.
    Some small rulers where called Nagas in Southern AP & Northern Tamil nadu. Many of these were feuduaries of Kamma rulers belonging to Durjaya vamsa. Based on Pallava inscriptions they were probably there earlier. There were branches in MP/Bastar/vidishia/Eran/Padmawati/Kantipura & Madhura region also. Some of them merged into Guptas after defeated during that time. The Haplogroup L is also very widespread among south Indian feudal castes like Kamma, Vellalas, Vokkaligas, Bunts & Nairs . Though some of these like Bunts & Nairs have sayed they belonged to Nagavamsa others have mixed with Chola/Chalukya feudal structure & stopped using that lineage & started showing Suryavamsa etc,, lineages

    http://www.bukudharma.com/ebook/naga...%20ancient.pdf

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/south-asia...doc220001.html
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    Some small rulers where called Nagas in Southern AP & Northern Tamil nadu. Many of these were feuduaries of Kamma rulers belonging to Durjaya vamsa. Based on Pallava inscriptions they were probably there earlier. There were branches in MP/Bastar/vidishia/Eran/Padmawati/Kantipura & Madhura region also. Some of them merged into Guptas after defeated during that time. The Haplogroup L is also very widespread among south Indian feudal castes like Kamma, Vellalas, Vokkaligas, Bunts & Nairs . Though some of these like Bunts & Nairs have sayed they belonged to Nagavamsa others have mixed with Chola/Chalukya feudal structure & stopped using that lineage & started showing Suryavamsa etc,, lineages

    http://www.bukudharma.com/ebook/naga...%20ancient.pdf

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/south-asia...doc220001.html
    this is incorrect - L is almost non-existent in Nairs (who are probably of majority Gangetic origin), the only L Nairs ive seen are me and 1 relative on 23andme. L doesnt exist outside ANF/Basal Eurasian influenced pockets in Kerala like Syrian Christians from the data. I havent seen high L in Kammas or Vellalas either if you could quote the study that would be great. It does seem to exist in foundered castes in Karnataka so high levels of it in Vokkaliga's is a possibility

    The data mostly suggests L is an ANF involved side-lineage correlating with later clades of J2 and possibly G2a and T.

    Arronbee mentioned that L is high in Kerala, this is also incorrect

    Kammas, Vellalas and Vokalligas do not share the same history as Bunts, Coorgis and Nairs (proto-Nair before the caste became a title like Patel), though the latter do have admix with the former Dravidian farmer based castes
    Last edited by bmoney; 08-05-2019 at 11:39 AM.

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  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    this is incorrect - L is almost non-existent in Nairs (who are probably of majority Gangetic origin), the only L Nairs ive seen are me and 1 relative on 23andme. L doesnt exist outside ANF/Basal Eurasian influenced pockets in Kerala like Syrian Christians from the data. I havent seen high L in Kammas or Vellalas either if you could quote the study that would be great. It does seem to exist in foundered castes in Karnataka so high levels of it in Vokkaliga's is a possibility

    The data mostly suggests L is an ANF involved side-lineage correlating with later clades of J2 and possibly G2a and T.

    Arronbee mentioned that L is high in Kerala, this is also incorrect

    Kammas, Vellalas and Vokalligas do not share the same history as Bunts, Coorgis and Nairs (proto-Nair before the caste became a title like Patel), though the latter do have admix with the former Dravidian farmer based castes
    L runs high in Kamma caste. Though R2, P, K & H also big parts. The Naga people in south merged with initial Pallava kingdom which is when Vellala & Vokkaliga & parts of Kamma caste formed. Many Bunt surnames listed in inscriptions were part Kamma surnames like Sammeta (Krishnadeva Raya) since they were originally based in Rayalaseema area prior to castes being formed & when they were called part of Yadu tribes like Turvasa or Jangama or Haiheya etc.

    Many Kamma lastnames were also from Pallava era & there is also high P like in Central Asia found exclusively among Kammas. Some other castes like Telaga also share O2 with Kamma very small portion.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Last greatest Hindu emperor in the South, Krishna deva Raya says himself as Turvasa one of Yadu tribes. His lastname Sammeta is used by Kammas & some Kapu belonging to Yadu tribe households. Part of many castes in south formed from Southern conquest of Yadu tribes & later conquest of these by the Magadhan kings some belonging to Ikshvaku & Sakyan line. Tulu kings descended from Yadu Turvasa as per many historical documents. Major part of Lingayathas were descended from Jangama tribe. Kammas have lot of Bhoj, Haiheya, Yadu names & were associated with these Kshatriya king households for long time including many queens, Pedda Kapus & Reddies also include these names. Golla Yadavs were part of these Yadu kings army & also Sheperds. Maharatta clans descend from many of these Yadu tribes. Some Rajputs also descend from these.


    Pemmasani Kamma kings traced their origin to Durjaya. They ruled as feudatory kings and army commanders over 300 years.

    According to inscriptions, the Pemmasani Kamma kings traced their origin to Durjaya vamsa.

    History :
    The Pemmasani Nayaks ruled Yadiki, Gutti and Tadipatri with Gandikota as capital. The hard earned independence of Telugu land came to an end in fifty years with the martyrdom of Musunuri Kapaya Nayaka, a prominent Kamma warrior king in 1368 CE at the hands of Recherla Nayaks who colluded with Bahmani sultan.

    A large number of remaining Nayaks who served under Kapaya Nayaka migrated to Vijayanagar and swore allegiance to Bukka Raya, a close associate of Kapaya Nayaka for protecting the Hindu dharma in Dakshnapatha (Deccan). Among them, Pemmasani clan was one.
    Generations of Pemmasani clan were commanders under various families of the Vijayanagar empire.

    Ramalinga ruled Gandikota (1509-1530 CE) during the time of Krishna Deva Raya. Ramalinga had 80,000 soldiers under him and he played a crucial role in the victory of Krishna Deva Raya over the combined armies of Kalaburagi, Golkonda and Ahmednagar. His exploits in the battle were extolled by many Telugu poets. He was the most feared by the Generals of Bijapur, Ahmednagar and Golconda.



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