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Thread: Telugu castes haplogroup distribution

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Kammas, Vellalas and Vokalligas do not share the same history as Bunts, Coorgis and Nairs (proto-Nair before the caste became a title like Patel), though the latter do have admix with the former Dravidian farmer based castes
    Is this theory by MGS Narayanan nonsense?

    https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nati...narayanan.html

    He is a groundbreaking historian but this sounds far fetched. I wonder what genetics says about the pre-Brahmin ancestry of the Nair communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid View Post
    Is this theory by MGS Narayanan nonsense?

    https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nati...narayanan.html

    He is a groundbreaking historian but this sounds far fetched. I wonder what genetics says about the pre-Brahmin ancestry of the Nair communities.
    Some of these theory based Historians look at the ethnic composition & some biased books to claim different assertions on many castes & tribes. But they don't do full scale statistical models nor full ethnological studies. most of them are hollow. Each community is unique in ethnic composition, one can't simply make biased assertions

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    Some of these theory based Historians look at the ethnic composition & some biased books to claim different assertions on many castes & tribes. But they don't do full scale statistical models nor full ethnological studies. most of them are hollow. Each community is unique in ethnic composition, one can't simply make biased assertions
    do you think kapu(and maybe kamma) caste is related to the kurmi caste of UP-Bihar?
    Is there anything in their haplogroups that suggests this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Yes its mostly fanciful speculation from Brahmin accounts (Keralolpathi, Grama Padathi) centuries after the fact - which also justifies Brahmin dominance as it describes Kerala as god-given land retrieved from the sea from Parshuram. The one Bunt sample we have scores most similar to Kurmi and Lambadi (Banjara) on Harappa which could support a UP low caste origin as per texts

    I suspect that the Nambudiris will have a high R1a/R2a ratio of y-haps, we have 0 y results but @vishankar is currently getting a y-analysis done for one of the Nambudiri samples he procured

    Keralolpathi is the history of Tulu people the Bunt (community) and Aryan Brahmins from Ahichatra and not the history of Dravidian people of Kerala who descend from Chera Dynasty. The Naga people (Nairs/Bunt (community) and the Namboothiris originally a subgroup of Tuluva Brahmins) who who might have invaded Kerala at the end of Tamil Chera Dynasty of Villavar people. Keralolpathi describes the history of Nair/Bunt (community)s and Tuluva Brahmins (Namboothiris and Shivalli Brahmins) and their migration from Indo-Nepalese border to Karnataka during the rule of Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 AD.Similar accounts are found in Gramapaddati,the records kept by Tulu Brahmins of Karnataka.Keralolpathi claims that a Tulunadu invader brother of Tulunadu king Kavirajasinghan send by Krishnarayar,Krishna III (939 967 C.E.) of the the Rashtrakuta Dynasty invaded Kerala with 350000 strong Nair army led by Padamala Nair.

    Gokarnam in the Uttara Kannada district the original homeland of Tulubrahmins after their arrival from Ahichatram is mentioned as a integral part of Kerala.However though Kerala was briefly occupied by various Karnataka rulers only Tamil Chera Dynasty ruled Kerala till 1100 AD and they practised Patrilineal descendency. Matriarchy practised by the Nagas of Karnataka,(Bunt (community)) reached only after the fall of Chera Kingdom. But after the invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310, all the Tamil Patriarchal Tamil dynasties of Kerala were replaced by Tulu dynastes of Bunt (community) who practised Matriarchy and wrote with Tulu Script.

    Incidentally Malayalam script is closer to Tulu script (Tigalari, used before Kannada script was adopted) than to Tamil (which its linguistically related more to)

    Re Haplogroup L - Majus analysis of the Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System. PLoS ONE 2012. mentions Sindh as the centre of differentiation and low L variance in South India, suggesting origins further north

    Haplogroup L is an important South Asian lineage with penetration in West and Central Asia and a center of gravity around Sindh (Pakistan), although it is also very common in West and South India.

    In Tamil Nadu L1a (L1 in the table) is common among nearly all sampled populations with peak among the dry land farmers' class.

    Instead L1c (formerly L3) is relatively rare, peaking among the Scheduled Castes class. No mention is made of any other L.

    Both clades show low variance in the region (0.41 and 0.22 respectively), consistent with their origin being further North.


    Re L657 - not sure, i only have 23andme level y-hap information - i can ask a close relative to get deep y-tested

    Will Morley y-predictor be enough to predict L657? in which case its free
    I have been following this thread with some interest and bmoney is right with regard to minimal L among nairs....at least on family tree dna nair group, there is ZERO L among its members who have tested for Y haplogroups!.

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    among the y haplogroups of the family tree dna nairs the distribution goes as below-

    1) haplogroup R2a- 2 individuals.
    2) haplogroup C- 2 individuals.
    3) haplogroup R1A1- 8 individuals.
    4)haplogroup J-M172- 3 indiviudals.
    5) haplogroup Q- 2 individuals.
    6)haplogroup H(M-52)- 1 individual.
    7) haplogroup H( M-69)-3 .
    8)haplogroup F-1 individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    do you think kapu(and maybe kamma) caste is related to the kurmi caste of UP-Bihar?
    Is there anything in their haplogroups that suggests this?
    Kapu is general term but primarily refers to Pedda Kapu in coastal area. Pedda Kapu are primarily agriculturalists who moved in probably from NorthEast (Vanga) some time in Iron Age. They are primarily haplogroup R2 but seem to have big autosomal component from that area. There are other Kapus like Telagas who have O2 component, Ontari & Turpu Kapus. Balijas are related group but they have big J2b component probably moved from Anga & Magadha. All these are forward communities. There were some Yadu tribes like Haiahaya ruling these communities so you will see occasional Zamindar having big Yadav/Kurmi or Yadu Kshtriya like signature among these communities. Even Reddies were considered type of these kapus, some times called Panta Kapu clan since they hold huge tracts of land.

    Kammas were mix of these Kapus & other ancient soldiers & households of Yadu tribes/mixed Naga-Yadu-Pallava ruling South. The Yadu component shows up like multiple episodes of Kurmi Kshetriya. Major portion of Kammas look & have big Yadu component due to long time associated with Yadu tribes.

    Compared to other Kapu communities, Kamma have higher Caucasian component, Gujjar like component & Yadav/Yadu Kshatriya like component. The Y-Haplogroup also shows up different than other communities, you see R2 like Kapus, J2b like Balijas, H1/R1a like Brahmins, K/P similar to Yadavs, G like in North & Pandyas in South

    Out of 20 sampled for Kamm I got, I see 3 R1a, 1 F1, 1 F2, 3 H1a, 4 L1, 2J2b, 1 J2a, 1 Q1, 4 R2 among Kammas
    Among 4 Brahmins, I see 2 R1a, 2 H1a
    among 3 Balijas, 3 J2b
    Kapus 2, 1 F1 & 1 R2

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    Quote Originally Posted by vishankar View Post
    I have been following this thread with some interest and bmoney is right with regard to minimal L among nairs....at least on family tree dna nair group, there is ZERO L among its members who have tested for Y haplogroups!.
    L present big among Vellalas, Vokkaligas & Kamma. Bunts probably carry big portion of it.

    The Banas of Uttara Kannada, the NADAVARA joined the Vijayanagara armies. The Alupas Pandyas of Dakshina Kingdom merged with Nagas eventually attacking Chera Kingdom
    The Banas of Andhrapradesh and Perumbanappadi eventually merged with Nayaks of Naga stock.

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    haplogroup L among nairs and others

    here is data from an earlier study- L frequencies.


    ezhava- 13.6%.
    nair- 18.9%.
    muslim- 11.1 %.
    brahmin- 33%( only 3 samples !)
    christians- nil.

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    so i have to agrree with tipirneni))).....the above study was from Kottayam..it also show how big a sample size one needs before drawing any conclusions!!!
    haplogroup R1a was still the leading Y dna hapgp among all the communities studied, but L was sizeable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by vishankar View Post
    so i have to agrree with tipirneni))).....the above study was from Kottayam..it also show how big a sample size one needs before drawing any conclusions!!!
    haplogroup R1a was still the leading Y dna hapgp among all the communities studied, but L was sizeable!
    Early estimates said L was sizable among Nairs. Also there is strong Nagavansha origin myths initially but later the local Kerala ruling families got mixed into the picture which skewed the distribution away from L

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