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Thread: Are the Italian results that Greeks receive on 23andme just genetic similarity?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Sorry, but you're horribly naive if you think modern Greeks don't have any Slavic ancestry, there's plenty of information and models about that subject on this forum and others
    More hearsay, and ad homs. I am talking about my own results that break your slavic ancestry narrative.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    More hearsay, and ad homs. I am talking about my own results that break your slavic ancestry narrative.
    It's not 'hearsay' nor a 'narrative', it's actual models made with scientific tools. It's virtually everywhere on sites that focus on genetic ancestry and models, you just need to look for it. I don't get any north African ancestry on 23andme either, it doesn't mean it's not there - it is, just hidden under the Iberian component. It's the same with your Greek.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y168273 Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.5964"
    Ruderico

    Hallstatt_Celt,66
    Iberia_BA,15

    North_African,10
    Mycenaean,6.8
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,2.2

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    It's not 'hearsay' nor a 'narrative', it's actual models made with scientific tools. It's virtually everywhere on sites that focus on genetic ancestry and models, you just need to look for it. I don't get any north African ancestry on 23andme either, it doesn't mean it's not there - it is, just hidden under the Iberian component. It's the same with your Greek.
    You've been unnecessarily rude and offensive, you made your point, you can leave the thread if you can't contribute in a constructive manner, thank you.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    You've been unnecessarily rude and offensive, you made your point, you can leave the thread if you can't contribute in a constructive manner, thank you.
    Sorry to be so blunt, but it's you who seem offended by people suggesting you have slavic ancestry. There's no rudeness on my part, on this or other topics, virtually every forum member can vouch for that.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 05-08-2019 at 12:30 PM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y168273 Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.5964"
    Ruderico

    Hallstatt_Celt,66
    Iberia_BA,15

    North_African,10
    Mycenaean,6.8
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,2.2

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    It's actually very possible. I don't have a Slavic shift. I am native Greek + Caucasus Greek + a bit Italian.

    (OP sorry if I am derailing thread).

    23andme results:
     








    MDLP K23b:
     

    MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 44.95
    2 European_Early_Farmers 18.50
    3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.45
    4 Near_East 10.42
    5 South_Central_Asian 6.89
    6 East_African 1.65
    7 Australoid 1.62
    8 Melano_Polynesian 1.39

    Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
    23 components mode.

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek_Athens_ @ 6.844237
    2 Greek_ @ 6.987954
    3 Cretan_ @ 7.499530
    4 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 7.842931
    5 Azov_Greek_ @ 7.869160
    6 Italian_South_ @ 7.870663
    7 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 8.151467
    8 Greek_Macedonia_ @ 8.299992
    9 Greek_Islands_ @ 8.499512
    10 Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ @ 9.048113
    11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.101571
    12 Central_Greek_ @ 9.656260
    13 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 10.800295
    14 Ashkenazi_ @ 10.807411
    15 Sicilian_Center_ @ 11.019162
    16 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_ @ 11.277564
    17 Turk_Istanbul_ @ 11.436416
    18 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 11.647830
    19 Sicilian_East_ @ 12.018623
    20 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 12.168914

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ +50% Greek_Smyrna_ @ 4.442225

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek_Peloponnesos_ +25% Greek_Smyrna_ +25% Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.700511

    Using 4 populations approximation:

    1 Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.700511
    2 Greek_Islands_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.806831
    3 Greek_Phokaia_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Kosovar_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.808865
    4 Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Greek_Thessaly_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.823013
    5 Central_Greek_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.833640
    6 Albanian_Tirana_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.850793
    7 Greek_Macedonia_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Kosovar_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.883113
    8 Armenian_ + Central_Greek_ + Greek_ + Greek_Phokaia_ @ 3.906221
    9 Greek_Islands_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Macedonian_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.908023
    10 Armenian_ + Central_Greek_ + Greek_Athens_ + Greek_Phokaia_ @ 3.913555
    11 Gagauz_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Italian_Abruzzo_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.924742
    12 Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Greek_Thessaloniki_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.928374
    13 Greek_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Kosovar_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.928767
    14 Albanian_Tirana_ + Armenian_ + Greek_Islands_ + Greek_Macedonia_ @ 3.932583
    15 Armenian_ + Greek_Islands_ + Greek_Macedonia_ + Kosovar_ @ 3.950652
    16 Cypriot_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Kosovar_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.951988
    17 Greek_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.956587
    18 Greek_Islands_ + Greek_Peloponnesos_ + Greek_Thessaly_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.956964
    19 Central_Greek_ + Greek_Smyrna_ + Greek_Thessaly_ + Turk_Trabzon_ @ 3.956974
    20 Armenian_Yerevan_ + Greek_Islands_ + Greek_Macedonia_ + Kosovar_ @ 3.961351


    Eurogenes K15

     

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 27.64
    2 West_Asian 26.21
    3 West_Med 13.25
    4 Atlantic 11.52
    5 Baltic 7.25
    6 Eastern_Euro 5.95
    7 North_Sea 3.05
    8 Red_Sea 2.72
    9 Oceanian 1.50

    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Central_Greek @ 10.927158
    2 Turkish @ 13.871483
    3 South_Italian @ 14.907853
    4 East_Sicilian @ 15.452016
    5 Ashkenazi @ 16.090002
    6 Azeri @ 16.241598
    7 Italian_Abruzzo @ 16.299543
    8 Greek @ 16.899401
    9 Cyprian @ 17.219070
    10 Sephardic_Jewish @ 17.811388
    11 Lebanese_Muslim @ 18.266991
    12 Armenian @ 18.754303
    13 Georgian_Jewish @ 18.893681
    14 Kurdish @ 19.151577
    15 Italian_Jewish @ 19.256655
    16 Assyrian @ 19.278822
    17 West_Sicilian @ 19.449316
    18 Greek_Thessaly @ 19.769033
    19 Algerian_Jewish @ 20.242825
    20 Syrian @ 20.411036

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Armenian +50% Greek @ 5.469257

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cyprian +25% Greek +25% North_Ossetian @ 4.958389

    Using 4 populations approximation:

    1 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Greek + Greek @ 3.937749
    2 Cyprian + Georgian + Greek + Greek @ 4.380717
    3 Abhkasian + Greek + Greek + Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.605400
    4 Abhkasian + Greek + Greek + Lebanese_Christian @ 4.739458
    5 Georgian + Greek + Greek + Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.823096
    6 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Greek + West_Sicilian @ 4.839117
    7 Abhkasian + Central_Greek + Cyprian + Greek @ 4.867735
    8 Abhkasian + Greek + Greek + Samaritan @ 4.904456
    9 Abhkasian + Greek + Greek + Lebanese_Druze @ 4.912017
    10 Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek + North_Ossetian @ 4.958389
    11 Adygei + Cyprian + Greek + South_Italian @ 4.973393
    12 Chechen + Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek @ 5.009809
    13 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Greek + Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.014428
    14 Adygei + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Cyprian @ 5.038291
    15 Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek + Kabardin @ 5.062118
    16 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Greek + South_Italian @ 5.062263
    17 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Georgian + Greek @ 5.099589
    18 Georgian + Greek + Greek + Lebanese_Christian @ 5.108541
    19 Adygei + Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek @ 5.109605
    20 Georgian + Greek + Greek + Iranian_Jewish @ 5.125682
    The reason why you don't have Slavic countries at your oracle is because you are partly from Minor Asia. So some Western Asia populations are appeared as well. Your Balkan Greek part seems quite Southern shifted ( Central Greek and South Italian appear before Greek and Abruzzo) so it must have less Slavic influence than most mainlanders but if you had the oracle of your Balakan Greek ancestors they would have Bulgaria and Romania at their oracle after Greek and Italian populations.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    while I am majority N.W. European, my minor Italian shows as Peloponnesos with one of the MDLP calcs.
    82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
    How much is your real Italian ancestry?

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Sorry to be so blunt, but it's you who seem offended by people suggesting you have slavic ancestry. There's no rudeness on my part, on this or other topics, virtually every forum member can vouch for that.
    Speaking of vouching for that, I was just reading this and noticing how you just can't seem to catch a break! All you've done is helpfully point out that the reference populations for these tests are based on modern people and won't pick up on the ancestral mixtures of the historical populations that have affected them. It seems to me that many people desperately wish for these results to reflect historical migrations or peoples quite often though.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Sorry to be so blunt, but it's you who seem offended by people suggesting you have slavic ancestry. There's no rudeness on my part, on this or other topics, virtually every forum member can vouch for that.
    Yeah, calling people naive who don't agree with your viewpoint is the epitome of scientific approach and maturity. You obviously know more about me than I do and than what those companies/calculators can produce from my SNPS. Have a good day.

    Xrip, I don't have Asia Minor, I am native + Caucasus + that tiny Italian. I know it might be a revelation for some but it is obvious from my results that not all Northern Greeks have Slavic ancestry contrary to your preconceptions and predispositions. You don't need to re-iterate the previous point you made, it is obvious that the existing sampling of the Northern Greek population is not accurate in describing everyone and has some flaws. By trying to mute contrarian voices you do not benefit further research.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Yeah, calling people naive who don't agree with your viewpoint is the epitome of scientific approach and maturity. You obviously know more about me than I do and than what those companies/calculators can produce from my SNPS. Have a good day.

    Xrip, I don't have Asia Minor, I am native + Caucasus + that tiny Italian. I know it might be a revelation for some but it is obvious from my results that not all Northern Greeks have Slavic ancestry contrary to your preconceptions and predispositions. You don't need to re-iterate the previous point you made, it is obvious that the existing sampling of the Northern Greek population is not accurate in describing everyone and has some flaws. By trying to mute contrarian voices you do not benefit further research.
    To be honest I wouldn't say that only Northern Greeks have some Slavic input but all mainlanders Greeks have some Slavic input(not a lot of it but we have some). I agree that we need more samples of modern medieval and ancient Greeks to make better conclusions but based on our data we are all closer to Balkans compared to ancient and medieval Greek samples (I am talking about the Myceneans and medieval Greek STR_300). Only some islanders seem not to be affected by Slavic/Balkan migrations. If new data gives new clue about it of course I will change my mind. In my opinion it is not obvious to your results because of this western Asia part (Caucasus) which gives you some Western Asian populations instead of Balkans.

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  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    To be honest I wouldn't say that only Northern Greeks have some Slavic input but all mainlanders Greeks have some Slavic input(not a lot of it but we have some). I agree that we need more samples of modern medieval and ancient Greeks to make better conclusions but based on our data we are all closer to Balkans compared to ancient and medieval Greek samples (I am talking about the Myceneans and medieval Greek STR_300). Only some islanders seem not to be affected by Slavic/Balkan migrations. If new data gives new clue about it of course I will change my mind. In my opinion it is not obvious to your results because of this western Asia part (Caucasus) which gives you some Western Asian populations instead of Balkans.
    There's also the Hellenic samples from Iron Age Iberia (Empuries) in the Olalde paper who happen to plot with Myceneans. While IA Greeks so far seem broadly similar to modern ones, there's a clear difference and northern pull that can only be explained by later population movements from the Balkans (and West Asia, iirc)
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y168273 Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.5964"
    Ruderico

    Hallstatt_Celt,66
    Iberia_BA,15

    North_African,10
    Mycenaean,6.8
    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,2.2

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