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Thread: Late Neolithic Mass Grave: Unravelling the genetics of a Massacre

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    These particular GAC samples all seem to be surprisingly dark haired and brown eyed, so I guess there must have been a selective sweep 3-3.5 Kya.

    Yeah strange but we can be quite sure that light phenotypes were not directly brought by Yamnaya and early CWC. They are all dark. I would say that a small group of EEFs, SHGs or mixed EEF/SHG people in Central Europe or the southern baltic region carried this phenotype which than was heavily selected.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah i have not seen evidence yet that CWC tribes did it. CWC probably committed such kind of massacres but killing other tribes and families was not really something new which PIE people brought to this region. It sounds all a bit dramaticized
    Yes definitely, considering CWC were largely males , it would not make sense for them to kill women, and many of them intermix with GAC females. Rather pathogens which these CWC populations carried were likely most responsible for the rapid population turnover in a short spate of time.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah strange but we can be quite sure that light phenotypes were not directly brought by Yamnaya and early CWC. They are all dark. I would say that a small group of EEFs, SHGs or mixed EEF/SHG people in Central Europe or the southern baltic region carried this phenotype which than was heavily selected.
    Yeah I was looking at the spreadsheet, it is quite surprising. It would be interesting to know when this phenotype sweep occurs because Bell Beakers were like this dark haired and dark eyed afaik. So I am guessing in the past 3.5-3.0 Kya.

  6. #14
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    Watch this video of archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen speaking in Vienna recently. He addresses this subject.

    If you don't have much time or are impatient, advance the video to 11:41 and watch from that point on.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-07-2019 at 11:28 PM.
     


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    I think once the dust settles and the low-hanging fruit is taken, we'll start seeing a lot of studies like this which are more low key but can be quite informative. It'd be fascinating to find out how polygamous or monogamous many of these EEF cultures were and, perhaps if we are lucky enough with archeological evidence, even narrow down patterns of kinship and how they have evolved among EEF societies. My initial guess is that these cultures were polygynous in a similar manner to other hoe using cultures in Papua New Guinea and Sub Saharan Africa. (The plough seems to have emerged among the TRB; I wonder if that affected kinship patterns as well?)
    Last edited by traject; 05-07-2019 at 11:30 PM.
    ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Yeah strange but we can be quite sure that light phenotypes were not directly brought by Yamnaya and early CWC. They are all dark. I would say that a small group of EEFs, SHGs or mixed EEF/SHG people in Central Europe or the southern baltic region carried this phenotype which than was heavily selected.
    And yet the earliest individual known to have carried the allele associated with blond hair, so far, is Afontova Gora 3, dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC, from the Yenisei river, in Siberia.

    Afontova Gora is a Late Upper Paleolithic Siberian complex of archaeological sites located on the left bank of the Yenisei River near the city of Krasnoyarsk, Russia. Afontova Gora has cultural and genetic links to the people from Mal'ta-Buret'.

    Afontova Gora 3

    In 2014, more human fossil remains were discovered at Afontova Gora II during salvage excavation before the construction of a new bridge over the Yenesei River.

    The remains belonged to two different females: the atlas of an adult female and the mandible and five lower teeth of a teenage girl (Afontova Gora 3) estimated to be around 14–15 years old. Initially, the new findings were presumed to be roughly contemporaneous with Afontova Gora 2. In 2017, direct AMS dating revealed that Afontova Gora 3 is dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC (14,710±60 BP).

    In a 2016 study, researchers determined that Afontova Gora 2, Afontova Gora 3, and Mal'ta 1 (Mal'ta boy) shared common descent and were clustered together in a Mal'ta cluster. Genetically, Afontova Gora 3 is not closer to Afontova Gora 2 when compared to Mal'ta 1.

    Phenotypic analysis shows that Afontova Gora 3 carries the derived rs12821256 allele associated with blond hair color in Europeans, making Afontova Gora 3 the earliest individual known to carry this derived allele.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 05-08-2019 at 01:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Reminescent of the LBK massacre from two millenia earlier. Are they sure it was CCW groups who did this? It could easily be rival GAC farmers.
    Yeah, really, very similar. No defensive wounds, almost victims killed by blunt force trauma to the head.

    In LBK massacres all the population of entire village was wiped out, and later they were just thrown to a sort of a dig. At this time likely only some people from the settlement were killed. So in GAC mass grave the dead were buried with care and with some grave goods.
    When LBK people made massacres, they like took young women, but this time we can see young women in the grave.

    By the way, I remember that they could understand that LBK victims got killed by the typical LBK stone tools, this time they do not provide detailed information about sort of weapon used to kill them. Was it typical to Yamnaya/CWC, or maybe to GAC or contemporary Baden culture?

    Table S1 from Supplementary materials(only information about age and sex of individs)
    Individ number/Age/Sex
    1 25-30 f
    2 1.5-2 m
    3 30-35 f
    4 16-17 m
    5 20-25 m
    6 13-14 f
    7 2-2.5 m
    8 30-35 f
    9 15-16 f
    10 18-20 m
    11 40-50 m
    12 30-40 m
    13 5-6 m
    14 50-60 f
    15 40-50 m
    First of all, it looks like they made a typo, individ 12 should be marked as a female.
    It also looks like their age estimations are a bit strange.
    In neolithic two full brothers one aged 18-20 another aged 40-50 (individs 10 and 11)?
    Another two full brothers one aged 20-25 and 40-50 (individs 5 and 15)?
    If we take maximum age difference it seems nearly impossible. But even minimal age difference between brothers (20 and 15 years) is a high difference even for modern times.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Aside from the fascinating local story, the new finding is that...

    "The five individuals from Książnice (Złota group) show evidence for additional gene flow, most likely from an eastern source."

    ... to the tune of ~7.4% EHG or 9.6% Yamnaya ancestry. Steppe ancestry seems to have been lacking in the Wilczyce (Złota group) though. I think the only Złota male belonged to I2a as well. This would lend some support for the generally accepted belief that Złota was a GAC group with incoming steppe influences.
    Yes, the authors of the article are too focused on the mass grave. Here we have genetics data from a few closely located settlements of the same culture, with very close dating, all 100% males from all sites belong to exactly the same Y-happlogroup, and only individs from 1 site show small Steppe admixture.

    By the way, look at the supplementary table7!
    There are relatives found even between sites!

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And it gives us a glimp of the situation when the CW pastoralist rushed in.... were they the attackers? At that time the Northern Plain and Southern Scandinavia were full of GAC/TRB groups. How did they cope with the Steppe influx? Was there a situation of co-existence? More often violence to each other? We don’t know. We only know that in the end in Northern Europa about the half of the genes are related to these CW people....still the genes of the TRB and GAC genes didn’t evaporate, they have left their HG/ENF blend mark too....
    Around 50%? Are you sure that you are not confusing CWC with Yamnaya admixture? Northern Europeans have around 40-50% Yamnaya admixture, but their CWC admixture is atleast 60%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Around 50%? Are you sure that you are not confusing CWC with Yamnaya admixture? Northern Europeans have around 40-50% Yamnaya admixture, but their CWC admixture is atleast 60%.
    Could be the case but Yamna on his turn is partly EEF, HG etc. So it's partly how you cut it into pieces.

    But I guess that I'm a TRB+CW mixture....than it will be 60% CW and 40% TRB???

    Just a:
    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_finn_mom",
    "fit": 4.4434,
    "Corded_Ware_Baltic_early": 54.17,
    "Anatolia_Barcin_N": 32.5,
    "ITA_Villabruna": 6.67,
    "Iberia_ElMiron": 6.67,

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Aside from the fascinating local story, the new finding is that...

    "The five individuals from Książnice (Złota group) show evidence for additional gene flow, most likely from an eastern source."

    ... to the tune of ~7.4% EHG or 9.6% Yamnaya ancestry. Steppe ancestry seems to have been lacking in the Wilczyce (Złota group) though. I think the only Złota male belonged to I2a as well. This would lend some support for the generally accepted belief that Złota was a GAC group with incoming steppe influences.
    The EHG model has a higher p-value (0.17) while the Yamnaya model has a p-value that is just above relevance (0.06) so the EHG model may be more valuable. However, the 2 way model without eastern admixture also fits and has an even higher p-value (.36).

    If it's real maybe it's related to Kunda? Someone could check if it has a small Magdalenian signal as well. Polish GAC have, as per this paper and Kunda has according to the Dzudzuana paper.
    Last edited by epoch; 05-08-2019 at 11:13 AM.

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