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Thread: Possible connection of part of central and eastern bell beakers to Gothic people ?

  1. #1
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    Question Possible connection of part of central and eastern bell beakers to Gothic people ?

    Recently while i was looking throught eurogenes g25 bell beaker data, I found out some of few samples possibly from eastern bell beaker people which are different than other ones and easly linking to people which were under controll of eastern Germanic tribes who conquared Rome such as Vandals,Visigoths,Ostrogoths,Gepids. These samples are kind of distant to other bell beakers which are easier linking to celts germans balts and people from north. I m new at forum and i don't yet know if it's a new thing or it was found out before.


    Heres some pictures in Topic and data for Eastern Germanic people as i named there Simplier Gothic, sorry it might be innacurate or poor in data.

    1024px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.pngInvasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.pngnew.pnguh.pngostrogoths.png

     
    [*]
    Gothic:Gothic_Rhine:Bell_Beaker_RhineMain_I5836,0. 117238,0.1046,0.057322,0.072675,0.020311,0.025658, 0.00517,0.000462,-0.013499,-0.01713,-0.005034,0.004046,-0.02111,-0.015551,0.018187,0.012331,0.012256,0.003041,-0.001131,0.014507,-0.000499,0.002226,0.002095,0.004097,-0.005149
    [*]Gothic:Gothic_Vandal_Poland:Bell_Beaker_POL_I4253, 0.12862,0.120848,0.046386,0.039406,0.025235,0.0170 12,0.00658,0.005538,-0.007158,-0.002005,0.002598,0.001798,-0.019029,-0.007156,0.019544,0.004906,-0.004955,0.00228,0.008296,0.013757,0.007986,0.0119 94,0.003944,-0.002771,0.006227


    and some testing runs in monte
     
    "distance%=4.4841" Italian_South:ITS2
    Mediterranean,77.4
    Gothic,20
    Germanic_Germany,1.8
    Baltic,0.4
    Celtic,0.4
    "distance%=2.1022" Italian_Tuscan:NA20505
    Mediterranean,63.2
    Gothic,16.2
    Celtic,9.8
    Germanic_Germany,7.2
    Baltic,3.6
    "distance%=2.1209" French:French61
    Celtic,84.6
    Mediterranean,7
    Germanic_Germany,6
    Gothic,2.4
    "distance%=2.484" Spanish_Cataluna:HG01537
    Celtic,37.2
    Mediterranean,30.8
    Gothic,17.2
    Germanic_Germany,10.6
    Baltic,4.2
    "distance%=1.2949" Hungarian
    Baltic,46.6
    Germanic_Germany,32.6
    Mediterranean,9.6
    Gothic,9
    Celtic,2.2
    "distance%=2.6511" German_East:German_East3
    Germanic_Germany,58.2
    Baltic,29.4
    Mediterranean,7.6
    Celtic,4.8
    "distance%=1.3388" German
    Germanic_Germany,64
    Baltic,12.4
    Celtic,8
    Mediterranean,8
    Gothic,7.6


    (yeah that calculator works kind of wrong becouse of some else wrong for it data that i curretly only have just for orientation curretly or all might be wrong aswell)
    My data is not yet well searched, if you are interested take a look on it and i dont reccomand for now anything from my data yet, i m not orientated well enough in archeological data and eurogenes g25. upper results are just for orientation check it better before by yourself.
    if it would be right connection to Eastern Germanic people who conquared Rome it might explain how they invaded it with Huns, theyr migration was more like steppe nomadic invasion might they had some connection with Turkic people from central asia becouse they lean more on the steppe side of dna from these position of pcas ?
    feel free to discuss
    ps. pls really dont take focus on names and other things in chart its just some of my poor data just for orientation from different and grouped acording to myself by name.
    Eurogenes G25 Coordinates
    HubertG_scaled,0.129758,0.13405,0.062225,0.04199,0 .042777,0.01506,0.00987,0.009461,0.003886,-0.013485,-0.00406,-0.006294,0.010704,0.011423,-0.004886,-0.001591,0.00352,0.003167,0.004148,0.00025,0.00162 2,-0.00136,0.003821,-0.000241,-0.003592
    HubertG,0.0114,0.0132,0.0165,0.013,0.0139,0.0054,0 .0042,0.0041,0.0019,-0.0074,-0.0025,-0.0042,0.0072,0.0083,-0.0036,-0.0012,0.0027,0.0025,0.0033,0.0002,0.0013,-0.0011,0.0031,-0.0002,-0.003

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  3. #2
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    While I can't comment on the Bell Beaker aspect for the Gothic people I can comment on why there might be a pull to the Steppe in regards to the Goths.

    The Goths (both Greuthungi - who would become the Ostrogoths and Tervingi - who would become the Visigoths) have links to the Chernyakhov culture in the Ukraine, Moldova, Romania and parts of Belarus. The Chernyakhov culture was a mixture of Slavic, Gothic, Geto-Dacian and Sarmatian people. The Sarmatians were an Iranian Steppe people related to the Scythians and other groups. Obviously the Goths would have mixed with these other cultures and we have evidence that the Goths had some sort of connection with the Sarmatian/Scythian population as Cniva, a Gothic king plundered parts of the Roman Empire with an army of Goths and other "Scythians". This mixing could explain the Steppe pull you see in your charts.

    In regards to the Turkic aspect, the Goths and more specifically the Ostrogoths and a related people called the Gepids were subjugated by the Huns under their king Attila. The Huns are generally believed to have been a Turkic people. Overtime the Huns and the Germanic people they ruled over would have eventually intermingled, and there is some evidence of this here with some ancient Y-DNA retrieved from Hunnic remains which turned out to belong to R-U106.


    Now I should mention the Gepids who were an Eastern Germanic people that were related to the Gothic people. The Gepids were one of the most important tribes under Attila the Hun and they are one of the tribes responsible for the fall of the Hunnic Empire after Attila's death. The Gepids appear to have had a Turkic/Hunnic influence if their armour and naming patterns are anything to go by, for example two of the Gepid leaders had Turkic-Mongolian names like Giesmus from *gesm from the Turkic-Mongolian kes/käs and Giesmus had a son named Mundus, which is a name with the same etymology as Mundzuk (the name of Attila's father) which comes from the Turkic root of *munʒu. According to some sources Mundus, who was both a Gepid leader and general in the Byzantine Empire was often referred to as both a Gepid and Hun, with some of these sources concluding that he was likely a grandson of Attila through a Hunnic-Gepid marriage.

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  5. #3
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    thats right thanks for usefull comment
    Eurogenes G25 Coordinates
    HubertG_scaled,0.129758,0.13405,0.062225,0.04199,0 .042777,0.01506,0.00987,0.009461,0.003886,-0.013485,-0.00406,-0.006294,0.010704,0.011423,-0.004886,-0.001591,0.00352,0.003167,0.004148,0.00025,0.00162 2,-0.00136,0.003821,-0.000241,-0.003592
    HubertG,0.0114,0.0132,0.0165,0.013,0.0139,0.0054,0 .0042,0.0041,0.0019,-0.0074,-0.0025,-0.0042,0.0072,0.0083,-0.0036,-0.0012,0.0027,0.0025,0.0033,0.0002,0.0013,-0.0011,0.0031,-0.0002,-0.003

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