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Thread: N haplogroup and Siberian admixture linked to the spread of Uralic languages

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    N haplogroup and Siberian admixture linked to the spread of Uralic languages

    This study debunks the theories that Carlos from indo-european.eu believes in (about allegedly Finno-Ugric Corded Ware culture):

    https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(19)30424-5

    "In this study, we compare the genetic ancestry of individuals from two as yet genetically unstudied cultural traditions in Estonia in the context of available modern and ancient datasets: 15 from the Late Bronze Age stone-cist graves (1200–400 BC) (EstBA) and 6 from the Pre-Roman Iron Age tarand cemeteries (800/500 BC–50 AD) (EstIA). We also included 5 Pre-Roman to Roman Iron Age Ingrian (500 BC–450 AD) (IngIA) and 7 Middle Age Estonian (1200–1600 AD) (EstMA) individuals to build a dataset for studying the demographic history of the northern parts of the Eastern Baltic from the earliest layer of Mesolithic to modern times. Our findings are consistent with EstBA receiving gene flow from regions with strong Western hunter-gatherer (WHG) affinities and EstIA from populations related to modern Siberians. The latter inference is in accordance with Y chromosome (chrY) distributions in present day populations of the Eastern Baltic, as well as patterns of autosomal variation in the majority of the westernmost Uralic speakers [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]. This ancestry reached the coasts of the Baltic Sea no later than the mid-first millennium BC; i.e., in the same time window as the diversification of west Uralic (Finnic) languages [6]. Furthermore, phenotypic traits often associated with modern Northern Europeans, like light eyes, hair, and skin, as well as lactose tolerance, can be traced back to the Bronze Age in the Eastern Baltic."

    More:

    "We identified chrY hgs for 30 male individuals (Tables 1 and S2; STAR Methods). All 16 successfully haplogrouped EstBA males belonged to hg R1a, showing no change from the CWC period, when this was also the only chrY lineage detected in the Eastern Baltic [11, 13, 30, 31]. Three EstIA and two IngIA individuals also belonged to hg R1a, but three EstIA males belonged to hg N3a, the earliest so far observed in the Eastern Baltic. Three EstMA individuals belonged to hg N3a, two to hg R1a, and one to hg J2b. ChrY lineages found in the Baltic Sea region before the CWC belong to hgs I, R1b, R1a5, and Q [10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 32]. Thus, it appears that these lineages were substantially replaced in the Eastern Baltic by hg R1a [10, 11, 12, 13], most likely through steppe migrations from the east [30, 31]. Although we did not detect N3a chrYs in our BA sample, unlike in BA Fennoscandia [26], we cannot rule out its presence due to small sample size. However, the frequency should not exceed 0.17 with 95% and 0.25 with 99% confidence [33]. The frequency of hg N3a was significantly higher in our IA than our BA group (Fisher’s exact test p value 0.013). Our results enable us to conclude that, although the expansion time for R1a1 and N3a3′5 in Eastern Europe is similar [25], hg N3a likely reached Estonia or at least became comparably frequent to modern Estonia [1] only during the BA-IA transition."



    Edit:

    I think this theory about the expansion of Finno-Ugric languages (and peoples) is very plausible:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

    Map 1, the Proto-Uralic homeland ca. 2000 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi1.jpg

     


    Map 2, Western Uralic language ca. 1600 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

     


    Map 3, Early Proto-Finnic language ca. 1200 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

     


    Map 4, Middle Proto-Finnic language ca. 500 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

     


    Map 5, Late Proto-Finnic language ca. 200 AD:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi6.jpg

     


    Map 6, Finnic languages around year 600 AD:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi7.jpg

     


    Map 7, Finnic languages around year 1000 AD:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi8.jpg

     


    Map from another source (posted by Parastais in another thread):

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais
    Very interesting paper.
    "Formation of Proto-Finnic – an archaeological scenario from the Bronze Age / Early Iron Age" Valter Lang.
    Starts on page 63.
    http://www.oulu.fi/sites/default/fil...naryPapers.pdf

    Main ideas of author can be shown with this picture:
    http://i67.tinypic.com/1z1sjzm.png

    NW Passage is how pre-Saami arrived into Finland.
    SW Passage is how pre-Finns arrived into Baltics.

    In general SW Passage would explain how proto or North Baltic loanwords entered Finnic languages. The Germanic folk in Curonia, Estonia explains how Germanic loanwords entered Finnic languages."

    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2019 at 07:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This study debunks the theories that Carlos from indo-european.eu believes in (about allegedly Finno-Ugric Corded Ware culture).
    I don't think even Carlos believes in his theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    More:

    "We identified chrY hgs for 30 male individuals (Tables 1 and S2; STAR Methods). All 16 successfully haplogrouped EstBA males belonged to hg R1a, showing no change from the CWC period, when this was also the only chrY lineage detected in the Eastern Baltic [11, 13, 30, 31]. Three EstIA and two IngIA individuals also belonged to hg R1a, but three EstIA males belonged to hg N3a, the earliest so far observed in the Eastern Baltic. Three EstMA individuals belonged to hg N3a, two to hg R1a, and one to hg J2b. ChrY lineages found in the Baltic Sea region before the CWC belong to hgs I, R1b, R1a5, and Q [10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 32]. Thus, it appears that these lineages were substantially replaced in the Eastern Baltic by hg R1a, most likely through steppe migrations from the east [30, 31]. Although we did not detect N3a chrYs in our BA sample, unlike in BA Fennoscandia [26], we cannot rule out its presence due to small sample size. However, the frequency should not exceed 0.17 with 95% and 0.25 with 99% confidence [33]. The frequency of hg N3a was significantly higher in our IA than our BA group (Fisher’s exact test p value 0.013). Our results enable us to conclude that, although the expansion time for R1a1 and N3a3′5 in Eastern Europe is similar [25], hg N3a likely reached Estonia or at least became comparably frequent to modern Estonia [1] only during the BA-IA transition."
    So, where did CWC R1a come from?

    the presence of a
    291 genetic component associated with Caucasus hunter-gatherers and later with people
    292 representing the Yamnaya Culture in Eastern hunter-gatherers and Estonian CCC individuals
    293 means that the expansion of the CWC cannot be seen as the sole means for the spread of this
    294 genetic component, at least in Eastern Europe. The transition to intensive farming and animal
    295 husbandry in Estonia, which took place a few thousand years after the farming transition in
    296 many other parts of Europe, was conveyed by the CWC individuals and involved an influx of
    297 new genetic material. These people carried a clear Steppe ancestry with some minor Anatolian
    298 contribution, most likely absorbed through female lineages during the population movements.
    Last edited by johen; 05-10-2019 at 04:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    So, where did CWC R1a come from?
    You still don't know?

    Here's a hint.


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    So, we got the dates for proper arrival of N in East Baltic (proper - because some random N might have arrived earlier, perhaps). Good stuff.

    But I find rather mysterious that new mixed population and old BA population were so similar! Difference in Siberian affinity is so small, yet difference in N frequency so big.
    They mentioned some EstBA were not locals and had higher Nganassaness. I imagine they could serve as a proxy for the source population that brought N and FU languages to the region.

    And that population would be Extremely Baltic-like autosomally, even before stepping into Baltics. So, somewhere further East some time before IA an ethnogenesys of Western FU speaking population on post-CWC basis happened. With N taking over Y lines, but autosomals largely CWC.

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    The highest Nganasan percentage, 7.84%, seems to be on an individual from Kunda, V10 (790-430 BC ), who carries R1a1c and the typical Western Uralic mtDNA H1a. However, the medieval sample OLS03 has a even higher Siberian percentage, 11.6%. He is yDNA R1a1a'b and mtDNA U4d1.

    I do not think that it makes much sense to argue that Western Uralics carry any higher percentages of Siberian than Kunda V10.

    I took the Nganasan percentage from Suppl Data S1 (mmc4), first model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    So, we got the dates for proper arrival of N in East Baltic (proper - because some random N might have arrived earlier, perhaps). Good stuff.

    But I find rather mysterious that new mixed population and old BA population were so similar! Difference in Siberian affinity is so small, yet difference in N frequency so big.
    They mentioned some EstBA were not locals and had higher Nganassaness. I imagine they could serve as a proxy for the source population that brought N and FU languages to the region.

    And that population would be Extremely Baltic-like autosomally, even before stepping into Baltics. So, somewhere further East some time before IA an ethnogenesys of Western FU speaking population on post-CWC basis happened. With N taking over Y lines, but autosomals largely CWC.
    When there is an introgression of few samples of an Y line into a population without changement of the autosomal two scenarios are possible.
    Language shift caused by elite dominance so the population switches language according to the new rulers or
    The Y line or new clan is "absorbed" and take the language of the local population

    So in this quarrel about CW being IE or Uralic it could well be that both parties are right and so since CWC is such a big cultural horizon ( from the Rhine to the Volga) why reject the idea that the core area was IE ( roughly Germany Poland and west baltic ) and some fringe areas were FU since the get go.
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-10-2019 at 06:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Some fringe areas were FU since the get go.
    This statement is based on what exactly? A guess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    And that population would be Extremely Baltic-like autosomally, even before stepping into Baltics. So, somewhere further East some time before IA an ethnogenesys of Western FU speaking population on post-CWC basis happened. With N taking over Y lines, but autosomals largely CWC.
    The tarand grave samples are actually very different from CWC, with much higher levels of various types of forager ancestry, and they're from the Iron Age Baltic coast, so at the end of their journey from the east.

    Imagine what their ancestors were like closer to the Urals.

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  19. #10
    I think this is also an important part.


    Moreover, two individuals from Kunda (0LS10 and V10) have the highest proportions of Nganasan ancestry among EstIA (6% and 8%), one of them has chrY hg N3a, and isotopic analysis suggests neither individual being born in Kunda [34]

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