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Thread: N haplogroup and Siberian admixture linked to the spread of Uralic languages

  1. #91
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    Difference in East Eurasian in outgroups maybe? - Davidski has Lapa do Santo.

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    For info. I have redone the 2-ways qpAdm of Estonia_IA_d (OLS10, V10, V11, V12, VII4, X04) and OLS10 with references Estonia_BA_d (OLS11, V14, V16, V9, X08, X10, X11, X14, X15, X17) and levänluhta_d (only JK1968 and JK1970). Keeping the whole Levänluhta sample was a bad idea, because of the coverage.

     


    left pops:
    Estonia_IA_d
    Estonia_BA_d
    Levanluhta_d (JK1968, JK1970)

    right pops:
    mota
    Ust_Ishim
    Kostenki
    MA1
    WHG
    EHG
    West_Siberia_N
    CHG
    Levant_N
    Ganj_Dareh_N
    Villabruna
    AHG

    0 Estonia_IA_d 6
    1 Estonia_BA_d 10
    2 Levanluhta_d 2
    3 mota 1
    4 Ust_Ishim 1
    5 Kostenki 1
    6 MA1 1
    7 WHG 9
    8 EHG 4
    9 West_Siberia_N 3
    10 CHG 2
    11 Levant_N 11
    12 Ganj_Dareh_N 3
    13 Villabruna 1
    14 AHG 1
    jackknife block size: 0.050
    snps: 1150474 indivs: 56
    number of blocks for block jackknife: 713
    ## ncols: 1150474
    coverage: Estonia_IA_d 917480
    coverage: Estonia_BA_d 1025629
    coverage: Levanluhta_d 587103
    coverage: mota 1149598
    coverage: Ust_Ishim 1147829
    coverage: Kostenki 1048972
    coverage: MA1 805960
    coverage: WHG 1149503
    coverage: EHG 1040745
    coverage: West_Siberia_N 857971
    coverage: CHG 1149558
    coverage: Levant_N 843630
    coverage: Ganj_Dareh_N 1019863
    coverage: Villabruna 883779
    coverage: AHG 735605
    dof (jackknife): 619.853
    numsnps used: 339044
    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 1 dof: 10 chisq: 8.365 tail: 0.593231534 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -8.365 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000
    Ust_Ishim -0.110
    Kostenki 0.573
    MA1 0.369
    WHG 1.822
    EHG 0.710
    West_Siberia_N -0.431
    CHG 0.974
    Levant_N 0.949
    Ganj_Dareh_N 0.475
    Villabruna 1.565
    AHG 1.410
    A:
    scale 1322.139
    Estonia_BA_d 0.175
    Levanluhta_d -1.403


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 8.365 taildiff: 0.593231534
    B:
    scale 1.000 1.000
    Ust_Ishim -0.017 0.851
    Kostenki 0.592 -0.016
    MA1 0.486 0.954
    WHG 1.787 -0.505
    EHG 0.680 -1.002
    West_Siberia_N -0.249 1.621
    CHG 1.014 -0.160
    Levant_N 1.118 1.290
    Ganj_Dareh_N 0.522 0.241
    Villabruna 1.462 -1.930
    AHG 1.417 -0.059
    A:
    scale 1179.969 6466.836
    Estonia_BA_d -0.065 -1.367
    Levanluhta_d -1.413 -0.363


    best coefficients: 0.889 0.111
    Jackknife mean: 0.886672596 0.113327404
    std. errors: 0.074 0.074

    error covariance (* 1000000)
    5469 -5469
    -5469 5469


    summ: Estonia_IA_d 2 0.593232 0.887 0.113 5469 -5469 5469

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 10 8.365 0.593232 0.889 0.111
    01 1 11 10.510 0.485208 1.000 -0.000
    10 1 11 86.171 9.34144e-14 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.593232 - -
    best pat: 01 0.485208 chi(nested): 2.145 p-value for nested model: 0.143067

    ## end of run

    left pops:
    Estonia_IA_OLS10
    Estonia_BA_d
    Levanluhta_d

    right pops:
    mota
    Ust_Ishim
    Kostenki
    MA1
    WHG
    EHG
    West_Siberia_N
    CHG
    Levant_N
    Ganj_Dareh_N
    Villabruna
    AHG

    0 Estonia_IA_OLS10 1
    1 Estonia_BA_d 10
    2 Levanluhta_d 2
    3 mota 1
    4 Ust_Ishim 1
    5 Kostenki 1
    6 MA1 1
    7 WHG 9
    8 EHG 4
    9 West_Siberia_N 3
    10 CHG 2
    11 Levant_N 11
    12 Ganj_Dareh_N 3
    13 Villabruna 1
    14 AHG 1
    jackknife block size: 0.050
    snps: 1150473 indivs: 51
    number of blocks for block jackknife: 713
    ## ncols: 1150473
    coverage: Estonia_IA_OLS10 319314
    coverage: Estonia_BA_d 1025629
    coverage: Levanluhta_d 587103
    coverage: mota 1149598
    coverage: Ust_Ishim 1147829
    coverage: Kostenki 1048972
    coverage: MA1 805960
    coverage: WHG 1149503
    coverage: EHG 1040745
    coverage: West_Siberia_N 857971
    coverage: CHG 1149558
    coverage: Levant_N 843630
    coverage: Ganj_Dareh_N 1019863
    coverage: Villabruna 883779
    coverage: AHG 735605
    dof (jackknife): 613.499
    numsnps used: 170303
    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 1 dof: 10 chisq: 8.476 tail: 0.582424785 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -8.476 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000
    Ust_Ishim -0.003
    Kostenki 0.732
    MA1 -0.089
    WHG 1.824
    EHG 0.783
    West_Siberia_N -0.537
    CHG 1.151
    Levant_N 1.077
    Ganj_Dareh_N 0.185
    Villabruna 1.504
    AHG 1.204
    A:
    scale 2501.383
    Estonia_BA_d 0.755
    Levanluhta_d -1.196


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 8.476 taildiff: 0.582424785
    B:
    scale 1.000 1.000
    Ust_Ishim 0.083 -0.206
    Kostenki 1.366 -0.586
    MA1 0.934 -1.428
    WHG 1.531 1.343
    EHG 0.992 0.080
    West_Siberia_N 0.633 -1.833
    CHG 1.003 0.737
    Levant_N 0.832 0.844
    Ganj_Dareh_N 0.444 -0.344
    Villabruna 1.385 0.881
    AHG 0.845 1.120
    A:
    scale 1556.968 3842.826
    Estonia_BA_d -0.417 1.406
    Levanluhta_d -1.351 -0.150


    best coefficients: 0.613 0.387
    Jackknife mean: 0.614219870 0.385780130
    std. errors: 0.191 0.191

    error covariance (* 1000000)
    36569 -36569
    -36569 36569


    summ: Estonia_IA_OLS10 2 0.582425 0.614 0.386 36569 -36569 36569

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 10 8.476 0.582425 0.613 0.387
    01 1 11 13.791 0.244755 1.000 -0.000
    10 1 11 18.184 0.0774125 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.582425 - -
    best pat: 01 0.244755 chi(nested): 5.315 p-value for nested model: 0.0211411



    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    This text by Parpola (perhaps already quoted?) is of great importance according to the theme of this thread: https://journal.fi/susa/article/download/70229/31259/

    Finnish vatsa ~ Sanskrit vatsáand the formation of Indo-Iranian and Uralic languages
    Around 1700 BCE, the Netted Ware spread towards north and northwest, to eastern and central Finland and to Karelia. I have earlier correlated this migration
    with the formation of the Saami branch (Parpola 2012a: 155). Pauli Rahkonen (2013) has more plausibly associated it with toponymic evidence from this area that he interprets as traces of an otherwise unknown early form of West Uralic. (..)

    I suggest that Proto-Finnic was introduced to the Baltic area by warrior-traders of the Akozino-Akhmylovo culture, who brought the Akozino-Mälar axes to southern and southwestern Finland, the Åland islands and, in so great numbers that it must have involved the movement of a fair amount of people, to the Mälaren area of eastern Sweden around 800–500 BCE (Figure 7 [here Fig. 10]). This main route along which the Akozino-Mälar axes went westwards probably followed the same waterways as the Vikings later, but another trade route was through the Daugava valley mentioned earlier while speaking of South Estonian as the Finnic language that was the first to separate from the protolanguage. On the basis of the associated archaeological evidence detailed below, I suggest that the ‘immigration of Finnic’ was not from Estonia to SW Finland as has been thought, but in the opposite direction, taking the Proto-Finnic language to Estonia (Estonian) and then further to Courland (Livonian) and to Latvia (the Finnic superstratum whose assimilation to the local Baltic speakers led to the differentiation of Lithuanian and Latvian). (Parpola 2012a: 153)
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  7. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    This text by Parpola (perhaps already quoted?) is of great importance according to the theme of this thread: https://journal.fi/susa/article/download/70229/31259/
    On basis of phylogeny the model proposed by Parpola seems implausible to me. There's no issue with some archaic Finnic branch moving to Sweden with axes and ceramics through southern Finland and island crossing. However it's logical to assume that this branch became germanized and disappeared. This is due to how Finnic splits according to Kallio, Lang etc. (South Estonian, then Livonian, then Estonian/Votic, then Finnish/Karelian/Vepsian, undisputed by Parpola) there'd have to be three migrations from Finland to south to explain South Estonian, Livonian and finally Estonian+Votic while a route from Estonia to north explains all existing Finnic branches with just one. If South Estonian goes from Moscow region to northern Pskov region via Daugava and the MRCA of the rest takes a detour through Finland we're still looking at two.

    Then there is the issue of Baltic loanwords, according to toponymy Baltic was not spoken too far north so all numerous shared loans from Baltic to Finnic that are missing from Saami are best explained by "southern" Dyakovo-ish location of Proto-Finnic.
    Last edited by Shaikorth; 05-16-2019 at 01:11 PM.

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  9. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    On basis of phylogeny the model proposed by Parpola seems implausible to me. There's no issue with some archaic Finnic branch moving to Sweden with axes and ceramics through southern Finland and island crossing. However it's logical to assume that this branch became germanized and disappeared. This is due to how Finnic splits according to Kallio, Lang etc. (South Estonian, then Livonian, then Estonian/Votic, then Finnish/Karelian/Vepsian, undisputed by Parpola) there'd have to be three migrations from Finland to south to explain South Estonian, Livonian and finally Estonian+Votic while a route from Estonia to north explains all existing Finnic branches with just one. If South Estonian goes from Moscow region to northern Pskov region via Daugava and the MRCA of the rest takes a detour through Finland we're still looking at two.

    Then there is the issue of Baltic loanwords, according to toponymy Baltic was not spoken too far north so all numerous shared loans from Baltic to Finnic that are missing from Saami are best explained by "southern" Dyakovo-ish location of Proto-Finnic.
    Until I read this text, I did not dispute the "classical" model (in brief, first proto-saami from Russia via Karelia to Finland, secondly proto-Finnish from Estonia, then a more or less intensive areolar phenomenon with the Gulf of Finland for contact zone). But Parpola is not really anyone and I think his hypothesis should be taken into account. We must think.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  10. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Until I read this text, I did not dispute the "classical" model (in brief, first proto-saami from Russia via Karelia to Finland, secondly proto-Finnish from Estonia, then a more or less intensive areolar phenomenon with the Gulf of Finland for contact zone). But Parpola is not really anyone and I think his hypothesis should be taken into account. We must think.
    Just noticed that later in the paper Parpola mentions that he is quite happy with Lang's hypothesis too.

    Most importantly, Lang rejected my suggestion that the Saami speakers
    came to Finland a millennium earlier with the northern expansion of the Netted Ware,
    and its corollary, that all the immigrants belonged to the Finnic branch. Instead, Lang
    proposed that the northwestern import route of the Akozino-Mälar axes was used by
    speakers of the Saami branch, while the southwestern route via the Daugava Valley
    was used by speakers of the Finnic branch. I am happy to accept this proposal of a
    simultaneous immigration of the Saami and Finnic branches to the Baltic area, which
    neatly agrees with the linguistic evidence.

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    Finnish ancient DNA should be coming soon. That will probably help to resolve the issue.

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    Shaikorth: yes, I noticed it as well. Long ago Parpola was still influenced by some sort of continuitist views, with deepest chronologies. He seems to have now completely abandoned them. Now, what are your thoughts about Kallio's last (afaik) Finnic phylogeny ( in " The Diversification of Proto-Finnic"):
    Capture.JPG
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Finnish ancient DNA should be coming soon. That will probably help to resolve the issue.
    Do you have infos about upcoming studies?
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Shaikorth: yes, I noticed it as well. Long ago Parpola was still influenced by some sort of continuitist views, with deepest chronologies. He seems to have now completely abandoned them. Now, what are your thoughts about Kallio's last (afaik) Finnic phylogeny ( in " The Diversification of Proto-Finnic"):
    Capture.JPG
    I don't see issues with it right now, but there might be some dead branches to add.

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