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Thread: N haplogroup and Siberian admixture linked to the spread of Uralic languages

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The tarand grave samples are actually very different from CWC, with much higher levels of various types of forager ancestry, and they're from the Iron Age Baltic coast, so at the end of their journey from the east.

    Imagine what their ancestors were like closer to the Urals.
    There's no need to frighten people. Mansi minus Evenki plus minus something should do the trick.

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  3. #12
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    I think this theory about the expansion of Finno-Ugric languages (and peoples) is very plausible:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

    Map 1, the Proto-Uralic homeland ca. 2000 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi1.jpg

     


    Map 2, Western Uralic language ca. 1600 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

     


    Map 3, Early Proto-Finnic language ca. 1200 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

     


    Map 4, Middle Proto-Finnic language ca. 500 BC:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

     


    Map 5, Late Proto-Finnic language ca. 200 AD:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi6.jpg

     


    Map 6, Finnic languages around year 600 AD:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi7.jpg

     


    Map 7, Finnic languages around year 1000 AD:

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi8.jpg

     


    Map from another source (posted by Parastais in another thread):

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais
    Very interesting paper.
    "Formation of Proto-Finnic – an archaeological scenario from the Bronze Age / Early Iron Age" Valter Lang.
    Starts on page 63.
    http://www.oulu.fi/sites/default/fil...naryPapers.pdf

    Main ideas of author can be shown with this picture:
    http://i67.tinypic.com/1z1sjzm.png

    NW Passage is how pre-Saami arrived into Finland.
    SW Passage is how pre-Finns arrived into Baltics.

    In general SW Passage would explain how proto or North Baltic loanwords entered Finnic languages. The Germanic folk in Curonia, Estonia explains how Germanic loanwords entered Finnic languages."

    Edit:

    I will add these maps also to the opening post.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-10-2019 at 07:33 AM.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The tarand grave samples are actually very different from CWC, with much higher levels of various types of forager ancestry, and they're from the Iron Age Baltic coast, so at the end of their journey from the east.

    Imagine what their ancestors were like closer to the Urals.
    That is a fair statement re “closer to Urals”, since indeed ones that arrived in Baltics had crossed a wide area of covered by (potentially) BalticBA type populations.

    Re Tarand and CWC, I will re-read since I did very quick read so got impression that whilst yes they had higher forager than CW, it was not that higher than Baltic/EstonianBA forager levels.

    From article:
    “When comparing Estonian CWC and EstBA using autosomal outgroup f3 and Patterson’s D statistics (Table S3), the latter is more similar to other Baltic BA populations, to Baltic IA and Middle Age (MA) populations, and also to populations similar to WHGs and Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHGs), but not to Estonian CCC”
    And
    “Outgroup f3 and D statistics do not reveal apparent differences when comparing EstBA to EstIA, EstIA to IngIA, and EstIA to EstMA (Data S1). These results highlight how uniparental and autosomal data can lead to different demographic inferences—the genetic change between CWC and BA not seen in uniparental lineages is clear in autosomal data and the appearance of chrY hg N in the IA is not matched by a clear shift in autosomal profiles.”

    So, this ‘forager inflated - R1a uniform - post CWC’ profile (BalticBA, EstonianBA) could have been rather widespread also East of Baltics, and on this autosomal base plus N and ‘Siberian something’ somewhere East the group that brought FU languages in Baltics got continuously formed with gradually decreased Siberian-ness on their way West.
    Last edited by parastais; 05-10-2019 at 07:31 AM.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    This statement is based on what exactly? A guess?
    Look at the map posted by Tomenable. A fringe CWC zone ( the Volga) as a Proto-uralic homeland.

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  9. #15
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    There is no need to take for granted that Proto-Uralic was spoken only by yDNA N1a1a-M178. It was certainly spread by it, but the yDNAs in the forest Volga where Proto-Uralic probably developed could have been different.

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  11. #16
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    Agreed. It's probable IMO that a handful of Y-DNA R subclades were present among the early speakers of Uralic, particularly given the antiquity of Y-DNA R1 in the P-C steppe.

    R1b-Z2103 may have been involved (5.5kya MRCA according to YTree; depending on which linguist's estimation of the age of proto-Uralic you're inclined towards, that'll either be within the "proto" period, or at an incipient pre-dispersal stage).

    [Edit]: Just read some of the earlier comments - It's not particularly fair to critique Carlos as an individual in his absence, so we'll be doing right by this community through avoiding those sorts of personalisations.

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  13. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Look at the map posted by Tomenable. A fringe CWC zone ( the Volga) as a Proto-uralic homeland.
    CWC (Fatyanovo) and it's succesor Abashevo were already gone if we're taking Proto-Uralic ethnogenesis date of 2000BC. You're speaking of post CWC period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Re Tarand and CWC, I will re-read since I did very quick read so got impression that whilst yes they had higher forager than CW, it was not that higher than Baltic/EstonianBA forager levels.
    It's not higher, it's about the same, but BalticBA/EstBA are also quite different from CWC. At least they have more steppe ancestry.

    I don't know how EstIA formed exactly, and how much direct CWC ancestry they had, but the people that they got their Y-hg N from a few generations back were probably an even more interesting mix with more Siberian input.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Look at the map posted by Tomenable. A fringe CWC zone ( the Volga) as a Proto-uralic homeland.
    Nope.

    Volosovo/Garino-Bor cultures are usually associated with Proto-Uralic, They're not derived in any way from CWC.

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    It's not higher, it's about the same, but BalticBA/EstBA are also quite different from CWC. At least they have more steppe ancestry.

    I don't know how EstIA formed exactly, and how much direct CWC ancestry they had, but the people that they got their Y-hg N from a few generations back were probably an even more interesting mix with more Siberian input.

    The culture behind Estonian tarand graves is derived from Dyakovo around Moscow which is not too far away, can't say if their DNA is being processed. There's also a possibility of some Levanluhta-like ancestry from pre-Saamis in these NE Estonian Tarands, they went along the northern routes seen in Tomenable's post and likely had contacts with groups like BOO straight from the Siberian Arctic coast.

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