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Thread: N haplogroup and Siberian admixture linked to the spread of Uralic languages

  1. #21
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    But Fatyanovo (Eastern Corded Ware) spread to the Volosovo area, and also Abashevo (ca. 2500–1900 BCE) overlapped with the Uralic area. Therefore, in Uralics, there could be R1a1-Z283 haplos and a Corded Ware adstrate/substrate from Fatyanovo (c. 3200 BC–2300 BC) (Western Uralics), and R1a1-Z93 haplos and an Indo-Iranian adstrate/substrate from Abashevo (all Uralics).
    Last edited by Kristiina; 05-10-2019 at 08:01 AM.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    The culture behind Estonian tarand graves is derived from Dyakovo around Moscow which is not too far away, can't say if their DNA is being processed. There's also a possibility of some Levanluhta-like ancestry from pre-Saamis in these NE Estonian Tarands, they went along the northern routes seen in Tomenable's post and likely had contacts with groups like BOO straight from the Siberian Arctic coast.
    Also south of Dyakovo, there were many assumed Baltic archaeological cultures like Dnieper-Dvina, Yuhknovskaya or Brushed Pottery culture which in part may explain why when Y-hg N showed up on East Baltic they were already very similar to locals, there's also abundance of Baltic hydronyms, around Moscow specifically most around Oka tributary. At least on my take Western Russia at the start of iron age was probably similar to East Baltic, but the more northern parts were Finnic/Uralic or whatever term would be more precise to describe and they weren't that drastically different. At least that's my take on it.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    But Fatyanovo (Eastern Corded Ware) spread to the Volosovo area, and also Abashevo (ca. 2500–1900 BCE) overlapped with the Uralic area. Therefore, in Uralics, there could be R1a1-Z283 haplos and a Corded Ware adstrate/substrate from Fatyanovo (c. 3200 BC–2300 BC) (Western Uralics), and R1a1-Z93 haplos and an Indo-Iranian adstrate/substrate from Abashevo (all Uralics).
    All sorts of things happened after the early Uralics took off from around the Urals. But I don't want to speculate too much until I've had a close look at the Tarand grave samples. The request e-mail for the data has been sent off.

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  7. #24
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    Here is a map with the area of western Uralic languages in grey, the area of Baltic hydronyms in red and the area of Trzciniec in green.

    Baltic hydronyms and the area of Trzciniec culture and Western Uralic languages.GIF

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    Also south of Dyakovo, there were many assumed Baltic archaeological cultures like Dnieper-Dvina, Yuhknovskaya or Brushed Pottery culture which in part may explain why when Y-hg N showed up on East Baltic they were already very similar to locals, there's also abundance of Baltic hydronyms, around Moscow specifically most around Oka tributary. At least on my take Western Russia at the start of iron age was probably similar to East Baltic, but the more northern parts were Finnic/Uralic or whatever term would be more precise to describe and they weren't that drastically different. At least that's my take on it.
    I've been thinking if it's possible that modern Balts have their Eastern Baltic language and N-haplo derived from Dnieper Balts who in turn got the haplogroup from pre-Finnic groups. These early Eastern Balts would have pushed Western Balts from the Baltic. If we look at admittedly germanized/slavicized formerly Old Prussian regions N-freq is below 20% while in Northwest Lithuania it's over 50%.
    Last edited by Shaikorth; 05-10-2019 at 08:22 AM.

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  11. #26
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    That Lithuanian IA N guy.
    Guess if they found him in Tarand grave, he would fit in very well.

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  13. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    I've been thinking if it's possible that modern Balts have their Easter Baltic language and N-haplo from Dnieper Balts who in turn got the haplogroup from pre-Finnic groups. These early Eastern Balts would have pushed Western Balts from the Baltic. If we look at admittedly germanized/slavicized formerly Old Prussian regions N-freq is below 20% while in Northwest Lithuania it's over 50%.
    I'm thinking along similar lines, that Y-hg N was brought over by the upcoming East Balts who picked it up somewhere around Moscow or somewhere close relatively speaking, most of area of today's Lithuania and Latvia was West-Baltic territory according to archaeology and later were pushed out to the coast by East Balts, but around first century +/- there was an influx from West Balts from Baltic coast into East Baltic territories and forming seperate tribal communities which could be more or less followed by their distinct burial rites. Also linguistics seem in some sort of way indicate that early Finnic came into contact with "Easternish" or some use term North Baltic languages, as for example wheel in Finnic language is borrowed from East Baltic it seems, in Lithuanian and Latvian it's ratas, or rats, in Estonian and Finnish it's ratas while in West Baltic Old Prussian it's kelan. So contact zone must have been somewhere to the east of today's Latvia and Lithuania in my opinion. Also hotspot of Y-hg N in Lithuania is in North-Eastern Lithuania, not North-Western.
    Last edited by teftelis; 05-10-2019 at 08:53 AM.

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    I'm thinking along similar lines, that Y-hg N was brought over by the upcoming East Balts who picked it up somewhere around Moscow or somewhere close relatively speaking, most of area of today's Lithuania and Latvia was West-Baltic territory according to archaeology and later were pushed out to the coast by East Balts, but around first century +/- there was an influx from West Balts from Baltic coast into East Baltic territories and forming seperate tribal communities which could be more or less followed by their distinct burial rites. Also linguistics seem in some sort of way indicate that early Finnic came into contact with "Easternish" or some use term North Baltic languages, as for example wheel in Finnic language is borrowed from East Baltic it seems, in Lithuanian and Latvian it's ratas, or rats, in Estonia and Finnish it's ratas while in West Baltic Old Prussian it's kelan. So contact zone must have been somewhere to the east of today's Latvia and Lithuania in my opinion. Also hotspot of Y-hg in Lithuania is in North-Eastern Lithuania, not North Western.
    I checked the regional breakdown of Lithuania from the PlosOne Balto-Slavic paper and northern Zemaitija has the highest N1c percentage (slightly below 50 so I misremembered that). Eastern Aukštaitija comes close but western and southern Aukštaitija have noticeably less and also less than southern and western Zemaitija.

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  17. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    I checked the regional breakdown of Lithuania from the PlosOne Balto-Slavic paper and northern Zemaitija has the highest N1c percentage (slightly below 50 so I misremembered that). Eastern Aukštaitija comes close but western and southern Aukštaitija have noticeably less and also less than southern and western Zemaitija.
    Alright I see, thanks for correcting me.

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    I checked the regional breakdown of Lithuania from the PlosOne Balto-Slavic paper and northern Zemaitija has the highest N1c percentage (slightly below 50 so I misremembered that). Eastern Aukštaitija comes close but western and southern Aukštaitija have noticeably less and also less than southern and western Zemaitija.
    That is where NLBC (North Lithuanian Barrow Culture) got formed and spread (future Semigalls, Zhemaitians, Selonians). Culture within which N Iron Age sample was found that was possibly L-1025.

    Letto Lithuanian folk (the “true linguistic” East Balts - Semigalls are sometimes called Central Balts, and Curonians their Western neighbors Northern Balts) had their roots more to the (South?)East I think and then pushed NorthWest. After the N was already there.

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