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Thread: English with Indian ancestor with photos + understanding K13 South Asian averages

  1. #1
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    English with Indian ancestor with photos + understanding K13 South Asian averages

    OK, so this is my first post here, so hello to everybody . I did an Ancestry DNA test last year for both my parents. On both my parent's side it shows up a very small amount of non European DNA that does not show on Ancestry, but does show on various GEDMATCH admixture calculators. On my father's side it was already expected to have something as his great grandfather, of whom I have two photos below looks darker than your standard Englishman. On my mother's side it shows a small amount of native American, which with her being English, was again a surprise. But for now I will just deal with South Asian - these are some of my father's admixture calculators below. It was useful to compare my parents - my father consistently got much higher South Asian, South Central Asian (K36), South Indian, and Melanesian than my mother. Conversely my mother got consistently higher Amerindian and Mesoamerican. These are two photos of my father's great grandfather when he was in his 40s, and in his 70s I think

    rufus ancest young 1.jpg
    rufus ancest old.jpg

    I believe his grandfather was likely the son of an English captain and his Indian servant.


    The first test I did was K13 - but looking at the South Asian averages for European populations is very confusing.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=804264822


    It was not particularly unusual for people that served in the East India Company, or in the Dutch or French equivalents to have semi-official or casual relationships with Indian women, in fact it was encouraged as it was seen as good to built local trade and family links. In Europe also Indian ancestry may come from Roma gypsy ancestry. But I am finding some very strange results in the averages for South Asian across Europe. There seems to be some spike in the Danish, which is also reflected in the Icelandic and North German samples. It also generally seems to get smaller as you go south in Europe. So is there a possibility that markers recognised as South Asian for K13 are either in error or reflect an ancient migration, maybe of the Yamnaya that finds its peak in Denmark and north Germany?

    Eurogenes K13 South Asian averages for Europe

    Austrian 0.78
    Belorussian 0.97
    Bulgarian 0.11
    Central Greek 0.29
    Croatian 0.97
    Danish 1.86
    East Finnish 1.48
    East German 1.46
    Estonian 0.95
    Finnish 0.53
    French 1.08
    French Basque 0.33
    Greek Thessaly 1.35
    Hungarian 0.83
    Icelandic 1.34
    Irish 1.09
    Lithuanian 1.34
    Moldavian 1.29
    North Dutch 0.6
    North German 1.46
    North Italian 0.56
    North Swedish 0.85
    Norwegian 0.42
    Portuguese 0.42
    Polish 0.96
    Romanian 0.55
    Serbian 0.33
    South Dutch 1.05
    South Italian 0.67
    South Polish 1.02
    SouthEast English 1.08
    SouthWest English 0.88
    SouthWest Finnish 0.69
    SouthWest French 0.33
    Spanish Andalucia 0.6
    Spanish Aragon 0.4
    Spanish Galicia 1.49
    Spanish Valencia 0.88
    Swedish 0.72
    Ukrainian 1.09
    West German 0.94
    West Scottish 1.14

    My father's GEDMATCH admixture results

    Eurogenes K13

    North_Atlantic 50.23
    Baltic 21.94
    West_Med 15.77
    West_Asian 3.61
    East_Med 4.44
    Red_Sea -
    South_Asian 2.04
    East_Asian 0.12
    Siberian 0.60
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.22
    Northeast_African 0.80
    Sub-Saharan 0.21

    Eurogenes EUTest V2 K15

    North_Sea 39.19
    Atlantic 26.40
    Baltic 11.17
    Eastern_Euro 4.72
    West_Med 11.51
    West_Asian 2.53
    East_Med 1.30
    Red_Sea -
    South_Asian 1.82
    Southeast_Asian 0.08
    Siberian 0.27
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.79
    Sub-Saharan 0.21

    Eurogenes K36

    Amerindian-
    Arabian-
    Armenian-
    Basque 3.37 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 9.11 Pct
    East_African -
    East_Asian-
    East_Balkan 0.49 Pct
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 8.59 Pct
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 1.89 Pct
    Fennoscandian 7.32 Pct
    French 5.39 Pct
    Iberian 12.64 Pct
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 11.44 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 16.54 Pct
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 20.12 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian 1.19 Pct
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 1.88 Pct

    MDLP World 22

    Pygmy 0.06 Pct
    West-Asian 7.24 Pct
    North-European-Mesolithic 4.49 Pct
    Indo-Tibetan -
    Mesoamerican -
    Arctic-Amerind -
    South-America_Amerind 0.07 Pct
    Indian 0.51 Pct
    North-Siberean -
    Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 36.24 Pct
    Samoedic 0.33 Pct
    Indo-Iranian 2.15 Pct
    East-Siberean -
    North-East-European 46.17 Pct
    South-African -
    North-Amerind -
    Sub-Saharian -
    East-South-Asian 0.16 Pct
    Near_East 2.15 Pct
    Melanesian 0.36 Pct
    Paleo-Siberian -
    Austronesian -

    Gedrosia K12

    S_INDIAN 1.34 Pct
    SUB_SAHARAN -
    EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS 37.46 Pct
    SW_ASIAN 4.16 Pct
    W_SIBERIAN 1.11 Pct
    SE_ASIAN -
    BALOCHI 4.92 Pct
    SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS 37.07 Pct
    INDO_TIBETAN -
    CAUCASUS 13.27 Pct
    E_AFRICAN -
    E_SIBERIAN 0.62 Pct
    Last edited by Rufus191; 05-11-2019 at 01:06 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Through gedmatch I also have a South Asian percentage albeit slightly higher scores than yours and my only known links to India are several generations back and I can't be sure of whether it's actually legitimate or just noise coming through on gedmatch calculators.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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  5. #3
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    I am myself ca. 1% Indian from a British-Indian line, this is confirmed by genealogy and my father's mt-DNA; it does not really show on the calculators, but if I look at the chromosome painter feature on gedmatch (K13) I see I have some solid green (south-Asian) segments. Recently, a match also descending from this line confirmed these segments are from our shared "Hindu woman" ancestor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    I am myself ca. 1% Indian from a British-Indian line, this is confirmed by genealogy and my father's mt-DNA; it does not really show on the calculators, but if I look at the chromosome painter feature on gedmatch (K13) I see I have some solid green (south-Asian) segments. Recently, a match also descending from this line confirmed these segments are from our shared "Hindu woman" ancestor.
    I have several segments of South Asian on K13 on several chromosomes for fairly significant looking spans on the chromosome painter feature. What do your segments look like? As in, is there something to the span of a segment (or its % in the chromosome by admixture feature) that clarifies whether something is simply noise or an actual signal?
    Last edited by spruithean; 05-11-2019 at 03:44 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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    Like this, sounds like it is not that different from you; in my case, I believe it reflects my Indian ancestry, because my grandmother also has South-Asian on these parts, and our match on these segments also descends from the common British-Indian line: it is either from the "Hindu woman" or from her English husband. Then I tend to choose the Hindu woman. It is no guarantee that for everyone such segments reflect recent South-Asian ancestry; it is very important to see if parents, grandparents also have the same type of admixture on those segments and of course having good DNA-matches to compare it with.

    SouthAsiansegments1.png

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    Thanks. I've already isolated it to my family it's not found in cousins of my grandmother or my grandfather. I just need to find maternal relatives of my grandmother to see if it is present in more people. It's around 2-2.5% in most calculators, I know my family had been living in India for several generations and an ancestor had several Indian wives and children by them.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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     Rufus191 (05-11-2019)

  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Like this, sounds like it is not that different from you; in my case, I believe it reflects my Indian ancestry, because my grandmother also has South-Asian on these parts, and our match on these segments also descends from the common British-Indian line: it is either from the "Hindu woman" or from her English husband. Then I tend to choose the Hindu woman. It is no guarantee that for everyone such segments reflect recent South-Asian ancestry; it is very important to see if parents, grandparents also have the same type of admixture on those segments and of course having good DNA-matches to compare it with.

    SouthAsiansegments1.png
    Thanks for this. I have tried the chromosome painter myself and I did find several green 'South Asian' parts. But I am slightly confused by these graphs - does a greater thickness of green 'South Asian' at one point mean that segment sequence is more common in South Asia, or is the higher whatever colour goes, it is more common? I have found other people descended from this line, but only confirmed on Ancestry so far. Also given what I have found for this South Asian average spike around Denmark/North Germany, can we be sure these markers are not links to some ancient migration, rather than our more recent Indian ancestry?

  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Thanks. I've already isolated it to my family it's not found in cousins of my grandmother or my grandfather. I just need to find maternal relatives of my grandmother to see if it is present in more people. It's around 2-2.5% in most calculators, I know my family had been living in India for several generations and an ancestor had several Indian wives and children by them.
    This is very interesting. Was your ancestor a merchant or soldier in the East India Company? It seems from the TV series Who Do You Think You Are, having Indian ancestry is not that uncommon, for British people at least, from memory, Sebastian Coe (athlete), Billy Connolly (actor and comedian), Olivia Colman (actress), and also Princess Diana and her sons Prince William and Harry all have documented Indian ancestry. I would be interested if on the MDLP World 22 calculator (also for Pylsteen), whether you show any Melanesian, also your South Indian % on Gedrosia K12.

  14. #9
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    My ancestors in India as far as I can tell were British soldiers, the paper trails sort of end and I can't track them back any further.

    In terms of MDLPK22 and Gedrosia-K12 from memory those populations you mentioned show up. I'll look at how much later as I'm on mobile. My Gedrosian South Indian shows up as well.
    Last edited by spruithean; 05-11-2019 at 05:06 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    My ancestors in India as far as I can tell were British soldiers, the paper trails sort of end and I can't track them back any further.

    In terms of MDLPK22 and Gedrosia-K12 from memory those populations you mentioned show up. I'll look at how much later as I'm on mobile. My Gedrosian South Indian shows up as well.
    Thanks I will be interested to know your exact percentages. I am guessing people with more recent Indian ancestry will have a small amount of Melanesian and South Indian, but these do not usually turn up in European populations. I will test some close matches on GEDMATCH and see what I find.
    I should add of my ancestor pictured above, that his mother was fully Irish (as far as I know), although born in England, likely from west of Ireland on both sides. You do tend to get a more dark look with western Irish so this could be muddying the waters so to speak . My father also shows slightly higher levels of north/east African and slightly less of south east Asian or Siberian, but I am not sure where these came in to my ancestry, or if they may just be noise.
    Last edited by Rufus191; 05-11-2019 at 05:44 PM.

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