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Thread: SNP L1066+ and Possible Connections

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    SNP L1066+ and Possible Connections

    I just wanted to bounce something around out there in light of some new information found, as it might relate to our current L1066+ UAS grouping. I am connected to the Davidson/Davison surname, confirmed back to at least 1685. My next nearest match is connected to the Curley surname, confirmed to the 1800's I believe. The GD between us at 111 markers is 5. Only very recently did we begin to look at one possible origin for the Curley surname as Mac Cairill,(later Anglicized to McKerley/M'Kerley, etc) from Galloway Scotland. I am currently testing Big Y so hopefully we'll get some new snps under L1066 but I just wanted to put this out there in case anyone is doing research on L1066 and groupings. I've also seen surnames overlapping with Border Reiver surnames, mine included so maybe there are some early indications of origins. I guess we have a long way to go before we can start pinning down geographic locations for clusters under L1066 but I'm very interested in any thoughts, no matter how speculative.

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    I'd like to add one more piece to this and that is a query looking at YCAII a/b and what appear to be definite connections (geographic Ossory/Kilkenny, etc.) This is from a ysearch pull of 8 markers including the 22/23 combo. I tried to pick as few markers as possible to pull back as many 22/23 matches. What I did was stick with markers common to all L1066 results, just to get to 8 total markers. There were a few more results only having one instance of a surname but I just left those off. There were 75 hits in total and there are some definite connections here.

    Fitzpatrick 8
    Dalton 7
    Brennan 5
    Venable 4
    Molinario 4
    mauldin 3
    Brannon 3
    Burke 2
    Whalen 2
    Brannan 2
    Curley 2
    Greene 2
    Brophy 1
    Stone 1
    Murray 1
    Brannen 1
    Veler 1
    D'Alton 1
    McPhearson 1
    Davison 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientCelt View Post
    I just wanted to bounce something around out there in light of some new information found, as it might relate to our current L1066+ UAS grouping. I am connected to the Davidson/Davison surname, confirmed back to at least 1685. My next nearest match is connected to the Curley surname, confirmed to the 1800's I believe. The GD between us at 111 markers is 5. Only very recently did we begin to look at one possible origin for the Curley surname as Mac Cairill,(later Anglicized to McKerley/M'Kerley, etc) from Galloway Scotland. I am currently testing Big Y so hopefully we'll get some new snps under L1066 but I just wanted to put this out there in case anyone is doing research on L1066 and groupings. I've also seen surnames overlapping with Border Reiver surnames, mine included so maybe there are some early indications of origins. I guess we have a long way to go before we can start pinning down geographic locations for clusters under L1066 but I'm very interested in any thoughts, no matter how speculative.
    I think every one knows that Ken Nordtvedt's old Irish IV/Continental haplotype signature is a subset of L1066 and L1066 actually fits under Z253 a couple of steps down.

    There are L1066+ people in places like Switzerland so it makes this group quite interesting.

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    MIke,

    Show me a snp under L21 that does not have representation on the continent. Do those snps were a continental badge? That's what I was getting at, it's clearly much heavier in the isles and I believe it's now been proven to be older in the Isles, would you agree or am I stating something that has not already been proven from the results thus far.

    Meant to add, I agree, it is very interesting but then I have a bias to it. I've said in the past, it and the snps yet to be found under it will prove to be very significant.

    I think I was a bit abrasive here,so please let me rephrase, Please show me an snp under L21 that does not have at least a few continental representations and I would be quite surprised. Also, we have clear examples from quite a ways back where various projects have pinned a Norman badge on one of the most ancient Celtic/Gaulish snps yet and have apparently made no effort to update that information. If anyone is going to post information out there for all the world to see, you also have a responsibility to correct it when it's been shown to be erroneous. I do not direct this to Mike, he's been a tireless warrior in the L21 research and I look forward to his assistance in the upcoming FGC and Big Y analysis. I'll just accept the fact I can't do anything about the others that continue to post false information out there because in all reality, this has been going on for hundreds of years, it's really nothing new. Happy holidays everyone and feel free to post your thoughts.
    Last edited by AncientCelt; 12-14-2013 at 03:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientCelt View Post
    MIke,

    Show me a snp under L21 that does not have representation on the continent. Do those snps were a continental badge? That's what I was getting at, it's clearly much heavier in the isles and I believe it's now been proven to be older in the Isles, would you agree or am I stating something that has not already been proven from the results thus far.

    Meant to add, I agree, it is very interesting but then I have a bias to it. I've said in the past, it and the snps yet to be found under it will prove to be very significant.

    I think I was a bit abrasive here,so please let me rephrase, Please show me an snp under L21 that does not have at least a few continental representations and I would be quite surprised. Also, we have clear examples from quite a ways back where various projects have pinned a Norman badge on one of the most ancient Celtic/Gaulish snps yet and have apparently made no effort to update that information. If anyone is going to post information out there for all the world to see, you also have a responsibility to correct it when it's been shown to be erroneous. I do not direct this to Mike, he's been a tireless warrior in the L21 research and I look forward to his assistance in the upcoming FGC and Big Y analysis. I'll just accept the fact I can't do anything about the others that continue to post false information out there because in all reality, this has been going on for hundreds of years, it's really nothing new. Happy holidays everyone and feel free to post your thoughts.
    Just to be clear, I didn't come up with that name, "Irish IV/Continental". I believe that was Ken Nordtvedt's description. I don't like to assign geographic or ethnic labels to SNPs. Notice that I call this one 253-2185-1066-T4. There is not even an "I", just the "T4" as a remnant of the original name.

    Frequency distribution-wise, all of L21 is quite high across the Isles and parts of northern France. The rest of the continent is no L21 hotspot.

    However, relative to the other large subclades of DF13, Z253 has a stronger showing in on the continent. We see it in France, Spain and in places like Switzerland. Different elements of Z253 are different though. L226 is probably one of the subclades with the least representation on the continent while L1066 is probably has one of the most (relative to L21 in general.)

    BTW, An L1066 project has started up. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/L1066_Plus/
    Last edited by TigerMW; 12-18-2013 at 02:48 PM.

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    Mike,

    Some Celts were mercenaries as you know, some were taken as slaves, of course there will be a handful of results on the Continent. If someone can show evidence that contradicts Mr. Jost's analysis of Z253, Z2534 and L1066 showing oldest in Scotland, I'd definitely be interested in seeing that. The Celts were forced to take surnames, many took names of their landlord's or some took English surnames. Conversely, you have clearly Celtic Clans, such as the McClure's and the MacCrackens all under Z253. You also have the Shiness Matheson's/McKenzies under Z2534. In fact, I just read about the English Law the forced the Irish to take surnames such as Green, Black, Cook, Smith, Butler, etc. These are not Normans, these are Celts that were forced to choose surnames. Time will tell, for now I'm trying to squash the slanted bias. As far as Ken, he was wrong. He's human, he makes mistakes, he just put the cart before the horse on that one and called the race far too early.

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    Not much action going on here but something came to mind and it shows I am definitely open to new information and alternate possibilities. As of this writing, nothing has changed showing L1066 is oldest in Scotland, however, what if some L1066 descendants were pushed back to Brittany/Amorica during the Saxon invasion. That's a historical fact, that Britons went to Brittany so what if some of them were L1066. Then, many years later, some of those L1066 descendants came back to the Isles as part of the Norman invasion army. So while I think it's ridiculous to consider L1066 Norman, when it's ancient Celtic, I do not think it's far fetched to think some of those L1066s came back to the Isles with the Normans and I could understand the Norman connection for some L1066.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientCelt View Post
    Then, many years later, some of those L1066 descendants came back to the Isles as part of the Norman invasion army. So while I think it's ridiculous to consider L1066 Norman, when it's ancient Celtic, I do not think it's far fetched to think some of those L1066s came back to the Isles with the Normans and I could understand the Norman connection for some L1066.
    Bill,

    As every English schoolboy (and schoolgirl) knows, 1066 definitely is associated with the Normans. It's the year that William of Normandy crossed the channel and defeated King Harold at the Battle of Hastings.

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    Not sure where that came from, I'm talking about the SNP L1066, not the year. I was saying that in the year 1066, when the Normans came with William, which many American schoolboys know as well, there were Celts with the Normans. L1066 is not a Norman snp, but, it's possible a contingent that arrived with the Normans were Celts and maybe some of those were L1066. This could explain the geographic diversity for the SNP.

    Edit to say, maybe that's why some others are confused, they are having trouble separating the year from the SNP, that's a thought.
    Last edited by AncientCelt; 12-28-2013 at 12:47 AM.

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