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Thread: SNP L1066+ and Possible Connections

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh1377 View Post
    Thanks Paul (Et al.), I do appreciate the insight on my case and the latest updated info on the ever-evolving mystery of CTS1202. I agree that it is maybe time for me to upgrade my STR testing to 67 markers so I can take my personal part of this quest to the end of the road (heck, I may even shoot for the Big Y test if I can budget it). As far as Z253 group, I believe I have joined it already but Iíll double check (I recall doing so earlier this year).

    Now, to go back to this Irish origin theory, I also tend to agree with your point that FTDNA is indeed "slanted" towards mainly Isles origin for many of the R1b-L21 results. This is the reason why I decided to test with some of their competitors recently. This is not to mention the fiasco where in which my GENO 2.0 results first labeled me under the J Haplogroup (I have blonde hair & light blue eyes so that was pretty funny), then under RL44 for a while before finally resting at CTS1202. In fact, CTS1202 was only confirmed recently, after three independent tests through the Geno 2.0 project were completed.

    Moreover, I think it is important to note that we are not talking about how CTS1202 fits within the entire male population of the world. We are really just talking about how it fits within the data garnered from the men who have participated in the various projects thus far. Therefore, I personally believe that it may be too premature to attempt to link any ancient culture to any subclade (or even Haplogroup for that matter).That would be especially true when talking about a region as historically dynamic as Western and Northern Europe.

    In addition, one could argue that each new participant that introduces conflicting results (especially people with a solid and long hereditary history) has the potential to further change what is known or accepted at this point. Indeed, all of us have to admit that it is not entirely improbable that the heritage of other men that share CTS1202 may eventually serve to tip the scales of origin back towards the main continent, Iceland or possibly even ancient Germania/ Scandinavia.

    After all, the Alps/ Rhine region sounds like it was a proverbial hotbed of ancient tribal activity during the time when our common ancient progenitor was likely to be sowing his wild oats. If that is true, is it too farfetched to then theorize that L21-DF13-Z253-Z2534-Z2185-Z2186-L1066 may be from a root tribe that existed well before such distinctions between our earliest ancestors were made (e.g. before the ignorance of those pesky Romans)? HeckÖ perhaps the entire ancient world mingled much more (and much farther back time-wise) then our current understanding of history gives our ancestors credit for.

    I know one thing for certain; it is going to drive all of us nuts until the database grows to the point where such alternate origins can truly be ruled out. Until then I am sticking to honoring my mixed Germanic and Celtic heritage by consuming large quantities of Lefse, Fine Scotch, strong Ale, Sausage, Mead and Smoked Salmon...
    That's quite a diet, you might want to add some Guinness, boiled tatties and corned beef and cabbage into the mix. I am Big Y tested and if my novel variants, not shared by any other L1066 Big Y testers yet are all below L1066 (28 novel variants not shared yet by anyone), I've got enough potential snps to go back perhaps to 500 BC, which will ultimately turn out to be ancient Irish or pre-"Irish" in Ireland for lack of a better word. L1066 might well still be of the Continent which wouldn't be at all surprising but I seriously see any major shift back that way when you look at the coverage Z253 and Z2534 have in the Isles and the age estimates there show upwards of 3,000 years in the Isles, older than any found on the Continent. True though, you don't need to be a scientist to realize the Continent is severely under tested so yes, we're going to have to wait. Since I started this thread, I lost interest, L1066 is just far too old to care enough about for me personally. Cheers or Slainte

  2. #42
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    Slainte, Cheers, Skal, Prost... it doesn't matter as long as it meant in good health, eh? I do hear you loud and clear and since L1066 is too old to continue to discuss, let me drive the discussion on to a far more important topic, your culinary suggestions.

    Corned Beef, cabbage and carrots are never wasted on my plate. However, 1) Guinness, in my humble opinion, is far too mass produced these days. I tend to aim for local craft brews that do those age-old brews better and in smaller batches. 2) I've lost my taste for tatties as I've began to grew older. Not to mention, they are not even really native to the Isles anyway; they are native to South American and were brought over by the Spanish circa the 16th century.

    Now serve me my Granny's homemade breakfast (sausage, pudding, fried eggs, some nice beans and proper bread) and I'm there for sure!

    Health and Happiness to all...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh1377 View Post
    Slainte, Cheers, Skal, Prost... it doesn't matter as long as it meant in good health, eh? I do hear you loud and clear and since L1066 is too old to continue to discuss, let me drive the discussion on to a far more important topic, your culinary suggestions.

    Corned Beef, cabbage and carrots are never wasted on my plate. However, 1) Guinness, in my humble opinion, is far too mass produced these days. I tend to aim for local craft brews that do those age-old brews better and in smaller batches. 2) I've lost my taste for tatties as I've began to grew older. Not to mention, they are not even really native to the Isles anyway; they are native to South American and were brought over by the Spanish circa the 16th century.

    Now serve me my Granny's homemade breakfast (sausage, pudding, fried eggs, some nice beans and proper bread) and I'm there for sure!

    Health and Happiness to all...
    You tak' the high road and I'll tak' the low road, and I'll get to Ireland before ye'. Once you get tested out on the additional markers, you've hopefully find out what cluster you fall under as there are many under L1066. I wish you well in your discoveries, I'm quite satisfied with mine knowing all my snps (novel variants) are right there now, just awaiting matches..Eventually we'll identify the Irish/Celtic tribe right before surnames were mandated on the native Irish population.

  4. #44
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    Well, hard to keep up with all the updates on here but I will try to squeeze one in. I'm trying very hard to get past preconceived speculation and wishful thinking...heck I saw some recent theory about one name's origins that had more holes in it than a huge wheel of Swiss cheese. I've finally stopped laughing long enough to manage a post. Anyway, have to really lean more towards a Breton origin for at least some of the L1066 varieties, Breton's that came back to the Isles with the Norman Invasion. Too many surnames have L1066 clusters that appear to be "Norman" however, they are only Norman in the sense they came over in the invasion, I think there is a possibility these families are actually of Breton origin, in fact, some do have roots in Brittany whereas others are in Normandy proper. The last analysis I saw from MJOST back in late 2013 put Z253 in Scotland, as the likely origin and also several snps under it, including L1066. Perhaps L1066 was part of the Britain group that fled to Amorica/Brittany during the Saxon invasion, only to later return to the Isles as part of the Norman Conquest. This still leaves the door open that possibly Z253 is linked to the Belgae or Fir Bolg since we've found since the discovery of ZZ10 that Z253 and Z255 share a common ancestor of ZZ10. This could possibly link the Laigin (Z255) with the Fir Bog or some other connected group (Z253). So far we haven't really been able to pin any L1066 Irish group to a more ancient Irish family/tribal group. Perhaps some of the L1066 Irish made their way back during the Strongbow invasion. Something I wouldn't even attempt to speculate is where did the L1066 mutation occur but I think it might be a stronger case to propose that at least some of them may have returned to the Isles during the Invasion of 1066. Anyway, just wanted to put this out there as food for thought and it's a lot less ridiculous than some other surname theory I came across yesterday, almost started to laugh again, whew. Take care.

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  6. #45
    I wanted to add, there is a bit of discussion about the novel variants found from NGS testing, for me it's Big Y and the the age calculations for novel variants. Well, I have 28 novel variants not shared by anyone that has tested thus far. I do not in any way shape or form think an age of 135 years per novel variant is even remotely realistic. I actually like an average of 35 years, so 28 times 35 equals (my novel variants times the 35 years) equals 980 years. Now, take 2015 and subtract 980 and we get about 1035 AD...what do you know, just prior to the Norman invasion. It's really getting hard to ignore these bits of information.This makes a bit of sense that I'd not have any other matches, if my own lineage arrived with the invasion, and no other persons from this lineage have tested, I'd be out on my own, and that's how I currently am. That's where we currently stand, we do have a few one offs from other surnames that match our L1066 cluster but I'll lean at this point our surname being the root of the cluster. I could be wrong and if additional evidence arises that supports a change, I'll be first on the list to review the new information. For now, this is the leading hypothesis.

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  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchSeeker View Post
    I wanted to add, there is a bit of discussion about the novel variants found from NGS testing, for me it's Big Y and the the age calculations for novel variants. Well, I have 28 novel variants not shared by anyone that has tested thus far. I do not in any way shape or form think an age of 135 years per novel variant is even remotely realistic. I actually like an average of 35 years, so 28 times 35 equals (my novel variants times the 35 years) equals 980 years. Now, take 2015 and subtract 980 and we get about 1035 AD...what do you know, just prior to the Norman invasion. It's really getting hard to ignore these bits of information.This makes a bit of sense that I'd not have any other matches, if my own lineage arrived with the invasion, and no other persons from this lineage have tested, I'd be out on my own, and that's how I currently am. That's where we currently stand, we do have a few one offs from other surnames that match our L1066 cluster but I'll lean at this point our surname being the root of the cluster. I could be wrong and if additional evidence arises that supports a change, I'll be first on the list to review the new information. For now, this is the leading hypothesis.
    Unless you have had your 28 Unshared variants validated, I very much doubt if they are all safe, even though FTDNA may have rated them High. Having checked the BAM files of 14 members of the Z253 group more than one third of the so called private variants turn out to be dodgy and others are actually shared by donors outside of Z253. Has Dennis Wright validated your Variants by reference to your BAM file?

    Ray Murta
    Last edited by Muircheartaigh; 01-18-2015 at 01:53 PM.

  9. #47
    Hello Ray, no, I'm keeping the bam file in-house but yes, I understand perhaps some of them might no pan out and that could of course change the big picture somewhat.

  10. #48
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    I may have found the Celtic tribe for one branch of L1066, the Curiosolitae. They were centered around Corseul in the Cotes d'Armor region of Brittany and very close to the commune of Corlay. I'll keep digging into this as best I can but feel like I may be on to something with this one, more so that my dozen or so past hypothesis. This one is actually making some sense..

  11. #49
    While the Curiosolitate tribe mentioned in the last post is interesting, there really isn't any connection from a DNA standpoint, just that they were in the area of Corlay and that Corlay and Curley are "similar", that's about it. As hard as it may be to swallow, I am still interested in a possible Viking connection, an R1B L1066 Viking connection. If this L1066 cluster is over 3000 years old, it is not really beyond the realm of possibility this group was back on the Continent, possibly in Denmark. Variance data from back late 2013 did show the combination of Scotland/Sweden/Denmark had the larges variance (for Z253), this from Mr. Jost's analysis back then. Maybe it's possible. This L1066 cluster is right around the area the Vikings were in Ireland and it is currently represented by a handful of one off surnames, with a MRCA possibly going back to the time the Vikings arrived. Maybe it's not that silly/crazy a proposition?? I'm reaching for sure but there is a 12 marker match to a Thurston, there is the Toirdhealbach name that some would like to completely remove from the mix but possibly shouldn't, there is the geographic area and there is the time period that could fit.

    Variance analysis (thank you MJOST) for Z253 from 9/2013
    Scotland, Sweden and Denmark n=29 9.60 / 3,041.99 = Var/Coal.

    I don't know if MJOST would consider running some new data for L1066 to see how it looks now but maybe things have changed. I think we may have more Scandinavian representation now in Z253 and L1066 and my prior Scotland entry should be changed to Ireland. Anyone open to the possibility that some of the L1066 might actually be from Viking incursions? As everyone knows, this is a really old snp, and some of the branches are quite isolated and not remotely closely related.

  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muircheartaigh View Post
    Bill,

    As every English schoolboy (and schoolgirl) knows, 1066 definitely is associated with the Normans. It's the year that William of Normandy crossed the channel and defeated King Harold at the Battle of Hastings.
    Muircheartaigh, I note that Bill has a history of throwing up such red herrings. That would be why he was removed from Antrogenica as AncientCelt and SearchSeeker and returned as AtWhatCost, now also removed. Bill's connecting the year 1066 with the SNP L1066 was never a serious attempt at history and worthy of no further attention, except to ponder why a project admin (so I'm told) would mislead his project members with such nonsense. I though oneillabu was exaggerating in the past with his criticisms of project admins. We should remember that there are also very good project admins.

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