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Thread: Winchester royal bones: Cnut, Emma, William Rufus and more

  1. #11
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    Here's a nice piece on the project. This analysis is an exciting possibility:

    "In a Danish context, particular interest focus on the identification of King Cnut, whose nephew was found buried in a pillar grave in Roskilde. Thus, perhaps offering the possibility through analysis of aDNA of linking the individual found in a chamber-grave in Jelling (King Gorm?) with those of his great-grandson in Winchester and his great-great-grandson in Roskilde."

    https://www.medieval.eu/emma-queen-o...great-on-show/
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Cat Jarman's twitter profile has a few things about this and there is a comment here: https://twitter.com/CatJarman/status...39336467501056 which says "...aDNA analysis is in progress but that far back in date it makes no sense to try to relate to living descendants - if there were any known - because there are just too many so the data are meaningless! (see @AdamRutherford's book for a great explanation of this)"
    There are certainly living descendants who have inherited some of their DNA, the only problem is that it has mixed and recombined so often that it cannot be recognized any more; it would be the same as searching for tomatoes in smooth ketchup.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Very interesting. For me the claim that everyone in Britain is descended from Edward III or in Europe as a whole from Charlemagne is flawed. It just takes the number of offspring and extrapolates that but doesn't take account of societal structure and rigid class rules in particular.
    Nobles had loads of illegitimate offspring. I have found about 10 lines to Medieval High Nobility (I prefer that term above Charlemagne; the latter is often a consequence of descendence from Medieval High Nobility) and in most cases, illegitimate offspring, say during the 1400s, were the pivot between nobility and the "common" people, often through marriage with a rich merchant, farmer or someone holding some jurisdictional function. And then I don't even know more than 99% of my ancestors in 1400. Are they detectable in my DNA? The chance that especially they have given their DNA to me instead of the few hundred thousand other ancestors from 1400 is small, and if they did, it is too much stirred to be able to say it is from them. Some ancestors from ca. 1600 are probably still recognizable, but further back than that will be very difficult.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Nobles had loads of illegitimate offspring. I have found about 10 lines to Medieval High Nobility (I prefer that term above Charlemagne; the latter is often a consequence of descendence from Medieval High Nobility) and in most cases, illegitimate offspring, say during the 1400s, were the pivot between nobility and the "common" people, often through marriage with a rich merchant, farmer or someone holding some jurisdictional function. And then I don't even know more than 99% of my ancestors in 1400. Are they detectable in my DNA? The chance that especially they have given their DNA to me instead of the few hundred thousand other ancestors from 1400 is small, and if they did, it is too much stirred to be able to say it is from them. Some ancestors from ca. 1600 are probably still recognizable, but further back than that will be very difficult.
    I agree there would be illegitimate children but am sceptical about whether descent from Charlemagne for example has reached every individual in every village in every outpost of Europe. By the same numbers game, everyone in Europe is descended from every prolific man in 9th century Spain, Italy, France, Wales, Bohemia or Germany. If that were true I can't believe we'd see the population structures we do. Returning to Winchester perhaps one day we'll see Cnut's DNA uploaded to YFull. That would be a cool match for someone.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I agree there would be illegitimate children but am sceptical about whether descent from Charlemagne for example has reached every individual in every village in every outpost of Europe. By the same numbers game, everyone in Europe is descended from every prolific man in 9th century Spain, Italy, France, Wales, Bohemia or Germany. If that were true I can't believe we'd see the population structures we do. Returning to Winchester perhaps one day we'll see Cnut's DNA uploaded to YFull. That would be a cool match for someone.
    Yes you are right; the difference is, I believe, that the Welshmen will descend hundreds of times from the same 9th century Welsh farmer, and perhaps only a few times from a 9th century Byzantine merchant, while a Greek person descends hundreds of times from that Byzantine merchant and only a few times from the Welsh farmer.

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    If they conduct atDNA testing on Emma, it will be very interesting to see how she will turn out and what it might tell about the background of her mother Gunnora, her grandmother Sprota, her greatgrandparents Rollo and Poppa of Bayeux.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Well, that's hugely disappointing.

    Wouldn't it be interesting to test autosomal, Y/mt to learn more about the whole "how Germanic is England" question? Testing Anglo-Saxon kings and a Danish king like Cnut and some Normans would be fantastic.

    Oh well...
    I messaged Dr Cat Jarman on Twitter her response was :-

    “aDNA is short for Ancient DNA so that includes both Y and Mt”
    *************************

    So there will be Y and mt results.
    Last edited by [email protected]; 05-20-2019 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Additional
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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I messaged Dr Cat Jarman on Twitter her response was :-

    “aDNA is short for Ancient DNA so that includes both Y and Mt”
    *************************

    So there will be Y and mt results.
    Awesome. Time to get my popcorn.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If an anthrogenica member is a direct male line descendant, we can conduct a virtual coronation ceremony


    I'm not secretly hoping to match Cnut or anyone... but if I do I will gladly accept being crowned while standing in the sea.

    Honestly, I'm probably not a match to any of these remains they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Testing Anglo-Saxon kings and a Danish king like Cnut and some Normans would be fantastic.
    Where is John Steinbeck, when we need him? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sh...n_of_Pippin_IV

    I dimly recall that book, but did read it in 1957 when it was new. This sort of thing was clearly a bad idea in 1957, and hasn't much improved with age.

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