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Thread: What are the Irish genetically speaking in summary

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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    I would not say that dark hair is uncommon at all. The majority of Irish people have dark hair. A common enough thing is being blond in early childhood with the hair turning brown as you get older in Ireland. Most in my family have dark hair with only the odd blond and red head. In the song 'Galway Girl', he's singing about someone whose hair was black and her eyes were blue. Obviously it's only a song but you would have a much harder time to find a genuine blond than someone with brown hair in Ireland.

    Someone answered this question on hair colour in Ireland. There's no source provided so take it with a pinch of salt but it sounds about right. https://www.quora.com/What-color-of-...e-usually-have

    I've also provided a link to the football players of my county GAA team. There's only really one footballer with light coloured hair. http://www.gaaroscommon.ie/player-pr...-Football-Team
    Similar to my family (both English and Irish). My colouring is very similar to my father’s and by extension, my paternal grandmother’s family. She was from Tipperary and I had several opportunities to visit my great aunts and uncles and my cousins. Most had dark brown hair or as in my case, started out blonde and over time the hair darkened to brown (of various shades). I think most of us had blue eyes.
    Last edited by Aroon1916; 06-01-2019 at 01:47 PM.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    There is no doubt that mid to darker brown hair is the most common hair colour in Ireland but its overwhelmingly accompanied by light eyes and extremely fair skin. The Harvard study did a survey of 1000s in a scientific example of the entire island and took care to break them down into catholics and protestants too to reduce the post-1600 British element. Its pretty clear that both black and very light ash blonde is very rare in hair colour. 3% have black, c. 40% have Dark brown c. 35% have not-dark-not fair middle brown shade and about c. 24% have red, golden blond or dirty fair type shades. There are also other factors that effect appearance other than just head hair. The current trend for huge beards has shown that facial hair is very often red or reddish on people with all shades of head hair from blonde to black in Ireland so their appearance in times when everyone had massive beards or huge moustaches (as most of the early depictions of the Irish on early christian manuscrips and carvings indicates) would have looked very much more rufus than just head hair colour would indicate. My barber (who is from Sligo) who does beard trimming reckons at least half his beard customers have reddish beards! So a visitor in Ireland would have seen a sea of red beards regardless of head hair LOL. I myself have mid brown hair which can get golden highlights in good weather and my beard is a slightly lighter more golden brown. The weirdest thing I ever saw was an English guy who naturally had blond hair and a black beard!
    My oldest son falls into the reddish coloured beard category. He has the not quite brown & not quite blonde hair, grey blue eyes, black eyebrows and body hair but sports a strawberry blonde beard!

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  5. #43
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    I'm very curios if in the case of skin, eyes, hair there is a kind of gene-culture coevolution!?

    Most outspoken in this respect is the Icelandic Rígsţula here are the three classes described in their color of skin, eyes, hair. The noble earls are described as light featured with blond hair and snake eyes. The karls or freeman c.q. the middle class are seen as somewhat reddish. And the thralls or slaves as swarthy, dark and are seen as ugly. When this since LNBA time was the mores, the norm, light is noble and darkish is low class and ugly this must have had effect on the genotype.....

    IMO this reflected in this Herc2 (SNP corresponding with light features):



    I guess this culture pressure was more evident among the North Dutch than along the South Dutch. Unfortunately no Irish figures....has someone this info. And I'm curios of these Icelandic (= general Germanic!?) norms were also at stake in Ireland.
    Last edited by Finn; 06-01-2019 at 06:51 PM.

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    Rigsthula, if "Eddic", is the work of a pretentious minor poet, and thus the feel is popular with Nordicists. Try not to focus on it. Not that there's anything wrong with the Dutch, but it still won't make you Swedish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Rigsthula, if "Eddic", is the work of a pretentious minor poet, and thus the feel is popular with Nordicists. Try not to focus on it. Not that there's anything wrong with the Dutch, but it still won't make you Swedish.
    Let's be loud and clear: I don't support Nordicist views, nor do I support Rigpula kind of views!!!

    But it's something different as a society (in the past) had such norms (equals not support from my side). I think this kind of 'sexual selection' must have been there.

    Because according to what I have read the situation in EBA was quite diverse, light features were there but may be not in majority is my impression, for example the Yamna/ Steppe pastoralist were kind of darkish etc.

    So since then some selective pressure must have been there....That is how it was (and not how I think how it ought to be, that is something different).
    Last edited by Finn; 06-01-2019 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Rigsthula, if "Eddic", is the work of a pretentious minor poet, and thus the feel is popular with Nordicists. Try not to focus on it. Not that there's anything wrong with the Dutch, but it still won't make you Swedish.
    See this (the Guardian so moderate leftist):
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...men-attractive
    I guess they are wrong with the paleothic thing but in essence they describe the same mechanism as I meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Rigsthula, if "Eddic", is the work of a pretentious minor poet, and thus the feel is popular with Nordicists. Try not to focus on it. Not that there's anything wrong with the Dutch, but it still won't make you Swedish.
    It would be a frankly crazy topic for debate, but I can not let you write that without reacting. You can say a lot about the Rígsthula, and many interpretations have been given to this part of the poetic Edda, probably written in Iceland around the year 1000, so in a period very close to the Christianization of the island. But "pretentious" and "minor" are at least two enigmatic words. Unless you have enough experience in ancient Icelandic reading (a sport I practice a little) to explain what is "pretentious" in its composition or poetic technique? About "minor", I really do not know what to think. Well, correct the preceding sentence, not "enigmatic", but "irrelevant", fully irrelevant.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    See this (the Guardian so moderate leftist):
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...men-attractive
    I guess they are wrong with the paleothic thing but in essence they describe the same mechanism as I meant.
    We now know that for scientific reasons, having lighter skin and lighter associated features, eyes and hair, might be advantageous the closer to the poles you get. Back then, of course, they would not know the reasons, but they certainly might have eventually 'twigged', generation over generation, after living 1000+ years at that latitude, that fairer skinned people might have been less likely to succumb to disease, and have been seen as stronger than darker featured people, and thus that became a preferable trait in sexual partners.

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    One thing that has always struck me is that places with high proportions of light eyes must be telling us something about the population history because dark eyes are genetically dominant and should decrease if there is substantial mixing with a large element with dark eyes. So when they are very prevalent today this needs explanation. They don’t seem to confer any obvious advantages in the timeframe and areas they became common in. One possibility is sexual selection. The other is that it backs up the ancient DNA evidence of virtual total replacement of the local Neolithic farmers. It may be a bit of both -starting with a drastic segregation from and outbreeding of the Neolithic farmers by a population with a significant blue eyed element like northern beaker, followed by sexual selection for lighter eyes etc. Sometimes a culture develops an idealised ‘type’ and then this becomes desirable and sexual selection then does it’s thing ie the wealthier men can choose wives who conform to the idealised type in their culture and they’re offspring have a higher survival rate than poorer people. It’s fascinating too that the yamnaya and CW were very dominantly dark of hair and eyes and it was only around 2500BC when the groups like the ancestors of the beaker people and later CW groups absorbed a load of GAC genes that light hair and eyes became significant. It may be in that period of mixing somewhere in north-central Europe that the blonde/blue eyed ideal emerged. The GAC people were extremely high in light hair and eyes and must have really stood out in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    It would be a frankly crazy topic for debate, but I can not let you write that without reacting. You can say a lot about the Rígsthula, and many interpretations have been given to this part of the poetic Edda, probably written in Iceland around the year 1000, so in a period very close to the Christianization of the island. But "pretentious" and "minor" are at least two enigmatic words. Unless you have enough experience in ancient Icelandic reading (a sport I practice a little) to explain what is "pretentious" in its composition or poetic technique? About "minor", I really do not know what to think. Well, correct the preceding sentence, not "enigmatic", but "irrelevant", fully irrelevant.
    It's in fornyrthislag and not ljothahattr if I recall correctly, and thus should be in the meter you know from the Voluspa. These are the old Eddic meters, not those of the elaborate and expensive skaldic verse (drottkvaett). In any event, look for Ursula Dronke's edition and translation in The Poetic Edda (volume ii): Mythological Poems to get your Nordicist fix (see her notes). Beware "Heimdall" would appear to sound like an Irish king, though. Wikipedia can help you with that.

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