Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 69

Thread: Norman impact on English DNA

  1. #41
    Registered Users
    Posts
    214
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    EV13>Z5018>S2972*
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Ireland Northern Ireland England Lithuania Germany United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    It’s a shame my maternal Gramps wasn’t alive, I would have got him tested, we always assumed his line was a straggler amongst Bonnie Prince Charlie’s Army, and took refuge in Wales, we cannot trace his Grant line past 1800 in Llanelli, could of course be a different route even Ireland, who knows.
    I have this exact thought all of the time, having my maternal grandfathers' (RIP) DNA analyzed would be an absolute dream come true (really, having all of my grandparents' DNA analyzed would be amazing). On that note, I've read that some companies can begin using something as small as a postage stamp or envelope to extract DNA from our relatives who've passed on:

    https://blog.myheritage.com/2018/11/...ekend-in-oslo/

    "Gilad announced that MyHeritage will soon be able, through a partnership with a specialist company, to process the DNA from stamps and old envelopes and then link the DNA to the ancestor, providing you with DNA results for your deceased ancestors, right on MyHeritage. Gilad himself is trying to extract the DNA of Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill from original letters in his collection.

    Gilad also announced plans to recreate our ancestors’ DNA through segment escalation. This means that if multiple descendants of a particular ancestor test their DNA, we will create a virtual kit for your ancestor and combine the segments from the multiple descendants of that ancestor."

    Honestly, MyHeritage ethnicity estimate is pretty bad so there can really be nothing learnt from that but having access to some of those DNA matches would be awesome. A Y test could likely be performed using these methods, that would be great.
    Y DNA E-V13>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>S2972* John Saunders unknown birthdate, died 1840 in Kings Bromley, Staffordshire, England.
    MtDNA U5a2c3a Betty Hallissy b.1801 Passage West, Cork, Ireland

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BackToTheForests For This Useful Post:

     Jessie (05-24-2019),  JonikW (05-19-2019),  Rufus191 (05-19-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (05-19-2019)

  3. #42
    Registered Users
    Posts
    939
    Sex
    Location
    South Wales
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Welsh,+ flags
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    R1a- Z283 - Y128147
    mtDNA
    J2a1a1a

    Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by BackToTheForests View Post
    I have this exact thought all of the time, having my maternal grandfathers' (RIP) DNA analyzed would be an absolute dream come true (really, having all of my grandparents' DNA analyzed would be amazing). On that note, I've read that some companies can begin using something as small as a postage stamp or envelope to extract DNA from our relatives who've passed on:

    https://blog.myheritage.com/2018/11/...ekend-in-oslo/

    "Gilad announced that MyHeritage will soon be able, through a partnership with a specialist company, to process the DNA from stamps and old envelopes and then link the DNA to the ancestor, providing you with DNA results for your deceased ancestors, right on MyHeritage. Gilad himself is trying to extract the DNA of Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill from original letters in his collection.

    Gilad also announced plans to recreate our ancestors’ DNA through segment escalation. This means that if multiple descendants of a particular ancestor test their DNA, we will create a virtual kit for your ancestor and combine the segments from the multiple descendants of that ancestor."

    Honestly, MyHeritage ethnicity estimate is pretty bad so there can really be nothing learnt from that but having access to some of those DNA matches would be awesome. A Y test could likely be performed using these methods, that would be great.
    Technology moves so quick ay! Well I have my Gramps “Grant”, old smoking tobacco pipe as an ornament at home, but he been gone now nearly 28 years.
    Gedmatch
    Kit Num: M129412, QA3736362
    23andme
    Hidden Content
    LivingDNA
    Hidden Content

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to sgdavies@hotmail.com For This Useful Post:

     BackToTheForests (05-19-2019),  Jessie (05-24-2019),  JonikW (05-19-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019)

  5. #43
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    412
    Sex
    Location
    Tennessee
    Ethnicity
    Anglo/British Isles
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b>DF27
    mtDNA
    J1c5

    United States of America England Wales Northern Ireland Scotland Normandie
    This Norman scenario may be key to figuring out some of my own genetic puzzles. Because Normans are a hidden people, vanished into the English, Irish and Scottish, it’s harder to find them judging by surnames in your genealogy. Again I am completely of Southern US stock, into the middle south with most of my lines coming through Virginia in the 1600’s.

    Here’s a quote on Virginia’s First Families:

    English colonists who formed the FFV emigrated to the new Colony of Virginia. Their migration took place from the settlement of Jamestown through the English Civil War and English Interregnum period (1642–1660). Some royalists left England on the accession to power of Oliver Cromwell and his Parliament. Because most of Virginia's leading families recognized Charles II as King following the execution of Charles I in 1649, Charles II reputedly called Virginia his "Old Dominion" – a nickname that endures today. The affinity of many early supposedly aristocratic Virginia settlers for the Crown led to the term "distressed Cavaliers", often applied to the Virginia oligarchy. Some Cavaliers who served under King Charles I fled to Virginia. FFVs often refer to Virginia as "Cavalier Country". These men were offered rewards of land, etc., by King Charles II, but most who had settled in Virginia stayed in Virginia.

    Many such early settlers in Virginia were so-called "Second Sons". Primogeniture favored the first sons' inheriting lands and titles in England. Second or third sons went out to the colonies to make their fortune, or entered the military and the clergy. Tidewater Virginia evolved as a society descended from second or third sons of English gentry who inherited land grants or land in Virginia. They formed part of what became the southern elite in America.


    While I have many southerner friends whose genetic reports come out exactly what they think they are, I have seen a couple of Northern France leaning southerners.

    I get completely baffled with my own results though for example:

    82F9C80F-3C00-4581-8982-F3C29457C871.png
    Last edited by Garimund; 05-19-2019 at 09:30 PM.
    23&me results:
    British & Irish 62.9%
    French & German 15.0%
    Scandinavian 0.9%
    Broadly Northwestern European 19.4%
    Broadly Southern European 0.9%
    Broadly European 0.1%
    Sub-Saharan African 0.7%

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Garimund For This Useful Post:

     Jessie (05-24-2019),  JMcB (05-25-2019),  JonikW (05-19-2019),  Nibelung (05-19-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (05-19-2019)

  7. #44
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,105
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    Isles Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA
    V

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by Garimund View Post
    This Norman scenario may be key to figuring out some of my own genetic puzzles. Because Normans are a hidden people, vanished into the English, Irish and Scottish, it’s harder to find them judging by surnames in your genealogy. Again I am completely of Southern US stock, into the middle south with most of my lines coming through Virginia in the 1600’s.

    Here’s a quote on Virginia’s First Families:

    English colonists who formed the FFV emigrated to the new Colony of Virginia. Their migration took place from the settlement of Jamestown through the English Civil War and English Interregnum period (1642–1660). Some royalists left England on the accession to power of Oliver Cromwell and his Parliament. Because most of Virginia's leading families recognized Charles II as King following the execution of Charles I in 1649, Charles II reputedly called Virginia his "Old Dominion" – a nickname that endures today. The affinity of many early supposedly aristocratic Virginia settlers for the Crown led to the term "distressed Cavaliers", often applied to the Virginia oligarchy. Some Cavaliers who served under King Charles I fled to Virginia. FFVs often refer to Virginia as "Cavalier Country". These men were offered rewards of land, etc., by King Charles II, but most who had settled in Virginia stayed in Virginia.

    Many such early settlers in Virginia were so-called "Second Sons". Primogeniture favored the first sons' inheriting lands and titles in England. Second or third sons went out to the colonies to make their fortune, or entered the military and the clergy. Tidewater Virginia evolved as a society descended from second or third sons of English gentry who inherited land grants or land in Virginia. They formed part of what became the southern elite in America.


    While I have many southerner friends whose genetic reports come out exactly what they think they are, I have seen a couple of Northern France leaning southerners.

    I get completely baffled with my own results though for example:

    82F9C80F-3C00-4581-8982-F3C29457C871.png
    The old "Southern gentleman" thing I suppose. You certainly look very Norman. By way of comparison, my map turned out how I expected it to. Various Dutch and the Normandy region showed up below the Isles:

    Screenshot_20190519-231231~2-384x337.png
    Last edited by JonikW; 05-19-2019 at 10:21 PM.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     dchicn (05-20-2019),  Garimund (05-19-2019),  Jessie (05-24-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019)

  9. #45
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,105
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    Isles Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA
    V

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    I've had a suitably Norman research blitz in the past few days and have now traced paper ancestry to all the "proven companions" of William in 1066 who had offspring. It's interesting to reflect that this tree includes the steward who was murdered alongside the sleeping young Bastard as well as the orderer of the killing. I was also gratified to figure out that Harold is inevitably on my line through Edward III as many times as William. Any thoughts on upper class ancestry and DNA results/ancestry still much appreciated. I only wish I could get this far on other lines. Early 19th century is the best I can manage for many of my working class ancestors in some parts of Wales.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Garimund (05-24-2019),  Grossvater (06-01-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019),  Rufus191 (05-24-2019)

  11. #46
    Registered Users
    Posts
    923
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    I-A14097

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Ireland France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I've had a suitably Norman research blitz in the past few days and have now traced paper ancestry to all the "proven companions" of William in 1066 who had offspring. It's interesting to reflect that this tree includes the steward who was murdered alongside the sleeping young Bastard as well as the orderer of the killing. I was also gratified to figure out that Harold is inevitably on my line through Edward III as many times as William. Any thoughts on upper class ancestry and DNA results/ancestry still much appreciated. I only wish I could get this far on other lines. Early 19th century is the best I can manage for many of my working class ancestors in some parts of Wales.
    I don't think I can comment much on the DNA of the upper class or nobility, but I suspect they would have higher "Norman" results (if that's possible), especially if marriages were limited to upper class not marrying outside of the class. Although illegitimate children could definitely change things, though how easy it is to differentiate Norman DNA from everyone else in this time period I don't know.

    The Normans are an interesting research topic, especially since there is a fair bit of info. I think their activity in the Mediterranean is the most interesting.

    Impressive that you can get your tree that far back. I don't think I've ever gotten that far back on my Isles ancestry, and relatives or anyone who has found a connectiom I make a note of it however I won't enter it into my own family tree data especially without supporting sources. My maternal side has part of the tree solidly connected to Charlemagne, however I'm not particularly impressed by that.
    Last edited by spruithean; 05-24-2019 at 12:18 AM.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     Garimund (05-24-2019),  JonikW (05-24-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019)

  13. #47
    Registered Users
    Posts
    39
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    G2a2b1 (G-M406)
    mtDNA
    R0a2m

    Gregory Clark in his book "The Son Also Rises" used rare surname analysis to trace status across the generations. Norman names were very significantly overrepresented in Oxford, Cambridge, etc -- a millenium after William the Conqueror. I'd wager that in a detailed genetic analysis of upper class Brits we'd still see inflated levels of Norman ancestry too.

    Btw, jealous of all the people that can trace their genealogy so far back -- I can't get past the mid-1800s, and that's only on two lines.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sprfls For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (05-25-2019),  Rufus191 (05-25-2019)

  15. #48
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,105
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    Isles Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA
    V

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    I came across this today, which is useful for putting the largely Norman and French elite in the context of the wider English gene pool around the time of the Magna Carta in 1215. Of course this was before the Black Death, but I imagine class offered no protection against the plague. This is from David Carpenter, one of the foremost scholars on John and the charter: “Earls and barons formed a tiny elite one hundred or so strong. Of knights there were several thousand. The population was several million.” Elsewhere he says an overall population of 3.5 million is the "safest bet" for the early 13th century.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

  16. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Camulogène Rix (06-01-2019),  Garimund (06-01-2019),  JMcB (06-01-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019),  spruithean (06-01-2019)

  17. #49
    Registered Users
    Posts
    923
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    I-A14097

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Ireland France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I came across this today, which is useful for putting the largely Norman and French elite in the context of the wider English gene pool around the time of the Magna Carta in 1215. Of course this was before the Black Death, but I imagine class offered no protection against the plague. This is from David Carpenter, one of the foremost scholars on John and the charter: “Earls and barons formed a tiny elite one hundred or so strong. Of knights there were several thousand. The population was several million.” Elsewhere he says an overall population of 3.5 million is the "safest bet" for the early 13th century.
    Interesting. I've always been under the impression that the Norman input into the gene pool in Britain wasn't as big as some make it out to be, it was a rather small amount of elites in relation to the inhabitants they were ruling over (still a lot of people, but relative to the rest of the population it was small). I suspect this happened not just in England but in several other places that Normans had been present, like Italy, Byzantium, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, etc. I think this is similar to how many Normans could actually be of Scandinavian descent, we know that the Scandinavians didn't settle the entirety of Normandy.

    Interesting that you had just posted that quote as I was reading about Norman activity in the Mediterranean and Near East and I was wondering how many people might be of Norman descent.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-01-2019),  JonikW (06-01-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019)

  19. #50
    Registered Users
    Posts
    45
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Ethnicity
    Mostly British Isles

    United Kingdom Ireland France Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I came across this today, which is useful for putting the largely Norman and French elite in the context of the wider English gene pool around the time of the Magna Carta in 1215. Of course this was before the Black Death, but I imagine class offered no protection against the plague. This is from David Carpenter, one of the foremost scholars on John and the charter: “Earls and barons formed a tiny elite one hundred or so strong. Of knights there were several thousand. The population was several million.” Elsewhere he says an overall population of 3.5 million is the "safest bet" for the early 13th century.
    Ah, but you are missing an important point there. Many others came after the conquest, who were not nobles or knights, from Normandy and from France as a whole, merchants, street traders, artisans etc. They continued to come in significant numbers until the beginning of the Hundred Years War.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rufus191 For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (06-01-2019),  Robert1 (06-03-2019)

Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Quantifying Norman DNA in Lebanon?
    By Sikeliot in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-10-2017, 08:29 PM
  2. Montgomery- Norman surname?
    By firemonkey in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-21-2017, 07:18 PM
  3. Norman toponymy
    By anglesqueville in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-08-2016, 08:17 PM
  4. Daubner surname origin Norman?
    By BalkanKiwi in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-21-2016, 12:57 PM
  5. I found out my Norman ancestor!
    By bradly88 in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-25-2015, 02:20 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •