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Thread: First Horse Warriors Video (Ancient DNA Discussed)

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    First Horse Warriors Video (Ancient DNA Discussed)

    Here it is:

    First Horse Warriors

    Ancient dna gets fairly prominent mention.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here it is:

    First Horse Warriors

    Ancient dna gets fairly prominent mention.
    Unavailable in my region due to restrictions (UK), so was it Yamnaya or cultures before them?
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    Is there really any evidence that Yamnaya first domesticated horses ? They talk a lot about this but i have not seen evidences for these here. They really ignored Sintashta who first invented/used Chariots and untill yet there is not much evidence for mounted warfare/horse warriors prior to Andronovo/Scythians.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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    The domestication of the horses used to be Botai culture. Before that, there were already finds in the Sredny Stog culture
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    Unavailable in my region due to restrictions (UK), so was it Yamnaya or cultures before them?
    The video ascribes the earliest evidence of horse domestication and riding to the Botai people of Kazakhstan, but they died out, and their horses cannot be traced to modern domestic horses. Instead it appears some Botai horse dna is found in modern wild Przewalski horses in Mongolia.

    About 30 minutes in, the video begins dealing with the Yamnaya people and their use of horses and wagons.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Is there really any evidence that Yamnaya first domesticated horses ?
    The video doesn't make that claim. Instead it attributes the earliest evidence of horse domestication, including milking, and of horseback riding, to the Botai people of Kazakhstan. Yamnaya arose as a cultural horizon somewhat later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    They talk a lot about this but i have not seen evidences for these here. They really ignored Sintashta who first invented/used Chariots and untill yet there is not much evidence for mounted warfare/horse warriors prior to Andronovo/Scythians.
    Have you read Anthony's book, The Horse The Wheel and Language?

    There is evidence Yamnaya people were riding horses, and it's pretty easy to swing a club or jab somebody with a spear (or just a sharp stick) from the back of a horse. No one is saying Yamnaya had organized cavalry. Probably what they had was the old ideal of the lone hero, but in their case it was a lone hero on horseback.

    They didn't ignore Sintashta; they just didn't name them specifically.
     


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    For those who don't have the time to read Anthony's seminal work, you can listen/watch a presentation he delivered from a couple years back here:


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The video doesn't make that claim. Instead it attributes the earliest evidence of horse domestication, including milking, and of horseback riding, to the Botai people of Kazakhstan. Yamnaya arose as a cultural horizon somewhat later.



    Have you read Anthony's book, The Horse The Wheel and Language?

    There is evidence Yamnaya people were riding horses, and it's pretty easy to swing a club or jab somebody with a spear (or just a sharp stick) from the back of a horse. No one is saying Yamnaya had organized cavalry. Probably what they had was the old ideal of the lone hero, but in their case it was a lone hero on horseback.

    They didn't ignore Sintashta; they just didn't name them specifically.
    well there is not really any hard evidences for them being the "first horse warriors", which conquered on horseback like they portrayed. Horses were rather used for efficient transport. Also Yamnaya is pretty much exaggerated in importance and rather late PIE. Actually direct yamnaya migrations into the balkan were not like the invasions they portrayed here. They did not replace the local population and in the balkan yamnaya spread it languages rather by elite dominance. Bell Beakers and Corded Ware/Sintashta are closer to their portrayal but they are probably not directly derived from Yamnaya. Horse domestication is in my opinion older than Yamnaya and happened probably in different times and in different neolithic steppe cultures ( botai, sredny stog(?),...)

    Here is a interview with Alan Outram which is up to date and better summarizing the current state of research. He states that there is not much known about the use of horses in Yamnaya and that horses only became important for warfare during Sintashta.

    Last edited by Coldmountains; 05-19-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well there is not really any hard evidences for them being the "first horse warriors"- Yamnaya is pretty much exaggerated in importance and rather late PIE.
    I think the evidence is actually pretty good. Elite Yamnaya males were buried with weapons and horse bones. Hard to imagine that they knew how to ride but never thought of hitting someone over the head with a club from the back of a horse, or that they never at the very least rode to a place, dismounted, fought, and then remounted to make their getaway with whatever loot they had acquired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Actually direct yamnaya migrations into the balkan were not like the invasions they portrayed here. They did not replace the local population and in the balkan yamnaya spread it languages rather by elite dominance. Bell Beakers and Corded Ware/Sintashta are closer to their portrayal but they are probably not directly derived from Yamnaya.
    There is a lot we still don't know. We actually don't have much ancient dna from the Balkans in the right period. Besides that, the Balkans is not the make-or-break locale for all of Europe. We know that there was in fact a radical change in European dna in the third millennium BC.

    Yamnaya dna or Yamnaya-like dna and Kurgan cultural traits are the common denominator in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker that speaks to their apparent status as Indo-Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Here is a interview with Alan Outram which is up to date and better summarizing the current state of research. He states that there is not much known about the use of horses in Yamnaya and that horses only became important for warfare during Sintashta.

    No, the video at the link in the original post in this thread is more current than that one, which I have seen already several times.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well there is not really any hard evidences for them being the "first horse warriors", which conquered on horseback like they portrayed. Horses were rather used for efficient transport. Also Yamnaya is pretty much exaggerated in importance and rather late PIE. Actually direct yamnaya migrations into the balkan were not like the invasions they portrayed here. They did not replace the local population and in the balkan yamnaya spread it languages rather by elite dominance. Bell Beakers and Corded Ware/Sintashta are closer to their portrayal but they are probably not directly derived from Yamnaya. Horse domestication is in my opinion older than Yamnaya and happened probably in different times and in different neolithic steppe cultures ( botai, sredny stog(?),...)

    Here is a interview with Alan Outram which is up to date and better summarizing the current state of research. He states that there is not much known about the use of horses in Yamnaya and that horses only became important for warfare during Sintashta.

    I always had the feeling that the question of "domestication of the horse and PIEans" probably were not connected . Because you can hardly define Botai as a candidate for PIE. What we know for sure is that horse and horse simbology played a major role among PIE speakers. But that is not necesarily connected with domestication. Actually many IE considered sacred many animals that were not domesticated (snake, bear) . What we know is the diffusion of the horse headed sceptres starting from the Suvorovo and sorroundings and spreading eastward toward the Dneper and the Volga. Probably the source of the horse mithology in IE started from there regardless of the domestication problem.

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