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Thread: First Horse Warriors Video (Ancient DNA Discussed)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well Afanasievo is definetly not from Yamnaya because it existed during the same time period more than 3000 km away and it was genetically a copy of Yamnaya. Yamnaya-like dna already existed prior to Yamnaya. Yamnaya is mostly hyped and not really that important.

    It is not a coincidence that CWC R1a existed in the steppe during Sredny Stog and disapeared when Yamnaya arrived. Sredny Stog also shows corded ware-like pottery and battle axes so there is quite a good trail to Sredny Stog especially because the Y-dna matches. Or how you explain that Indo-Iranian R1a was found there but not in Yamnaya and only was again found in the steppe much later with Sintashta, who arrived from the northwest and with extra GAC admixture, which Yamnaya lacked?
    An evaluation of the Ukraine eneolithic/ Dereivka/ SS in Yamnaya:

    Yamnaya_Samara
    Dereivka_I_I4110 0.3240.035
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2004 0.6760.035
    chisq 6.797
    tail prob 0.976979
    Full output

    Afanasievo
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2004 0.6380.038
    Sredny_Stog_II_I6561 0.3620.038
    chisq 10.855
    tail prob 0.818366
    Full output

    Yamnaya_Ukraine
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2001 0.6550.073
    Sredny_Stog_II_I6561 0.3450.073
    chisq 12.676
    tail prob 0.696277
    Full output

    Poltavka
    Dereivka_I_I4110 0.3240.038
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2004 0.6760.038
    chisq 12.895
    tail prob 0.680437
    Full output

    Yamnaya_Caucasus
    Khvalynsk_Eneolithic_I0122 0.0860.054
    Sredny_Stog_II_I6561 0.2210.070
    Vonyuchka_Eneolithic_VJ1001 0.6930.101
    chisq 13.113
    tail prob 0.593562


    This is the expansion east, west and south of the Skeyla/ Dereivka/ Sredni Stog . You can read about the archeological findings in the big Rassamakin paper on the steppe.
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-19-2019 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That could be right. After all, British I2417 from Olalde et al, one of the Boscombe Bowmen, had as much Yamnaya dna as any Corded Ware man, and he was R1b-L21.

    That's irrelevant, however, since we don't really know how Corded Ware came to be and what its relationship to Yamnaya is. Its people carried Yamnaya dna; we know that, so there was pretty obviously a genetic relationship.

    And I believe the point at issue was whether or not Yamnaya people rode horses and used them in war.

    I think they did.
    CWC_baltic_early has more steppe-like ancestry (basically a copy of yamnaya but more SHG shifted) and something similar to it like the source of steppe ancestry among North Europeans.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4 (Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun/Indo-Aryan)

    mtdna: H28 (Globular Amphora, Bronze Age Latvia) > H28a (Ruthenian)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well Afanasievo is definetly not from Yamnaya because it existed during the same time period more than 3000 km away and it was genetically a copy of Yamnaya. Yamnaya-like dna already existed prior to Yamnaya. Yamnaya is mostly hyped and not really that important.
    Afanasievo is really not relevant since its people headed out far to the east and took themselves out of the picture: out of the picture that concerns Europe, anyway.

    If Yamnaya is "hyped", it sure has fooled a lot of archaeologists, historical linguists, and geneticists. Really, that's just hyper goofy.

    Of course, you realize that the fact that steppe dna predates Yamnaya does not really matter if Yamnaya was its third millennium BC vehicle westward. European dna existed before the founding of Jamestown in 1607, but it was the English who initially brought it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It is not a coincidence that CWC R1a existed in the steppe during Sredny Stog and disapeared when Yamnaya arrived.
    How do you know R1a disappeared when Yamnaya "arrived"? Arrived from where? Sredny Stog was one of the Eneolithic cultures that fed into the creation of Yamnaya. In other words, Sredny Stog became Yamnaya, or at least an element of what went into the making of Yamnaya.

    There are literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans that have not been tapped for y-dna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Sredny Stog also shows corded ware-like pottery and battle axes so there is quite a good trail to Sredny Stog especially because the Y-dna matches. Or how you explain that Indo-Iranian R1a was found there but not in Yamnaya and only was again found in the steppe much later with Sintashta, who arrived from the northwest and with extra GAC admixture, which Yamnaya lacked?
    We don't know how Corded Ware came to be or what its relationship to Yamnaya is.

    Yamnaya burials also included stone battle axes and pottery with corded impressions.

    Sredny Stog was one of the five steppe cultures of the final Eneolithic that fed into the formation of the Yamnaya cultural horizon:

    1. Mikhailovka I
    2. Post-Mariupol
    3. Late Sredny Stog
    4. Late Khvalynsk
    5. Repin

    See Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 267.

    Many scholars have puzzled over the origins of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. I don't know of any of them who traces CW directly to Sredny Stog.
     


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    Additional Data:
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    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    An evaluation of the Ukraine eneolithic/ Dereivka/ SS in Yamnaya:

    Yamnaya_Samara
    Dereivka_I_I4110 0.3240.035
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2004 0.6760.035
    chisq 6.797
    tail prob 0.976979
    Full output

    Afanasievo
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2004 0.6380.038
    Sredny_Stog_II_I6561 0.3620.038
    chisq 10.855
    tail prob 0.818366
    Full output

    Yamnaya_Ukraine
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2001 0.6550.073
    Sredny_Stog_II_I6561 0.3450.073
    chisq 12.676
    tail prob 0.696277
    Full output

    Poltavka
    Dereivka_I_I4110 0.3240.038
    Progress_Eneolithic_PG2004 0.6760.038
    chisq 12.895
    tail prob 0.680437
    Full output

    Yamnaya_Caucasus
    Khvalynsk_Eneolithic_I0122 0.0860.054
    Sredny_Stog_II_I6561 0.2210.070
    Vonyuchka_Eneolithic_VJ1001 0.6930.101
    chisq 13.113
    tail prob 0.593562


    This is the expansion east, west and south of the Skeyla/ Dereivka/ Sredni Stog . You can read about the archeological findings in the big Rassamakin paper on the steppe.
    It seems Sredny Stog and the R1a-M417 guy only recently arrived in the region from the east so Sredny Stog had very diverse groups. Some where Ukraine_HG-like some eef-like and some mixed with something progress_eneolithic like. Early PIE is probably frome somewhere between the Don and Volga river (Repin culture?)
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4 (Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun/Indo-Aryan)

    mtdna: H28 (Globular Amphora, Bronze Age Latvia) > H28a (Ruthenian)

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     etrusco (05-20-2019)

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It seems Sredny Stog and the R1a-M417 guy only recently arrived in the region from the east so Sredny Stog had very diverse groups. Some where Ukraine_HG-like some eef-like and some mixed with something progress_eneolithic like. Early PIE is probably frome somewhere between the Don and Volga river (Repin culture?)
    sample": "Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110",
    "fit": 3.4225,
    "Globular_Amphora_Ukraine": 42.5,
    "Progress_Eneolithic": 30,
    "SHG": 19.17,
    "EHG": 7.5,
    "WHG": 0.83,
    "LBK_N": 0,

    "sample": "Ukraine_Eneolithic:I6561",
    "fit": 4.4362,
    "Progress_Eneolithic": 45.83,
    "LBK_N": 27.5,
    "EHG": 18.33,
    "Globular_Amphora_Ukraine": 5.83,
    "SHG": 2.5,

    "WHG": 0,
    "closestDistances":

    Sredni Stog/Dereivka/ Skeyla / was clearly a mixed zone between CT and local Dneper Donets foragers.

    This is clearly evident in Kotova paper:

    https://www.academia.edu/35556491/Th..._to_Eneolithic

    From the abstract.

    This article is devoted to cultural contacts of steppe population and Balkan people about 5300–4800 BC. Numerous imports (adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells, pots, plates from the bone and nacre, pendants from the teeth of red deer), radical changes in the cultural traditions (new type ornamental compositions, flexed inhumations, stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove) and imitation of pottery have been fxed for the Late Neolithic in the Eastern European steppe. Acquaintance with first metal and strong western impact caused the formation of the new Sredniy Stog culture.

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     Coldmountains (05-19-2019)

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Afanasievo is really not relevant since its people headed out far to the east and took themselves out of the picture: out of the picture that concerns Europe, anyway.

    If Yamnaya is "hyped", it sure has fooled a lot of archaeologists, historical linguists, and geneticists. Really, that's just hyper goofy.

    Of course, you realize that the fact that steppe dna predates Yamnaya does not really matter if Yamnaya was its third millennium BC vehicle westward. European dna existed before the founding of Jamestown in 1607, but it was the English who initially brought it there.



    How do you know R1a disappeared when Yamnaya "arrived"? Arrived from where? Sredny Stog was one of the Eneolithic cultures that fed into the creation of Yamnaya. In other words, Sredny Stog became Yamnaya, or at least an element of what went into the making of Yamnaya.

    There are literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans that have not been tapped for y-dna.



    We don't know how Corded Ware came to be or what its relationship to Yamnaya is.

    Yamnaya burials also included stone battle axes and pottery with corded impressions.

    Sredny Stog was one of the five steppe cultures of the final Eneolithic that fed into the formation of the Yamnaya cultural horizon:

    1. Mikhailovka I
    2. Post-Mariupol
    3. Late Sredny Stog
    4. Late Khvalynsk
    5. Repin

    See Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 267.

    Many scholars have puzzled over the origins of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. I don't know of any of them who traces CW directly to Sredny Stog.
    We have dozens of Yamnaya samples and there is no trace of R1a among them yet. And most important with the arrival of Sintashta R1a the autosomal dna also changes so there was not just selection/founder effects which made R1a so dominant but populations movements/replacements. Yamnaya looks ancestral to Paleo-Balkan languages and maybe Armenaian and for the balkan it played a big role but not for the rest of Europe or Asia. Just because many repeat again and again that all PIE cultures are from Yamnaya that becomes not truth. Many of these scholars were about many things wrong (Indo-Iranians from eastern Yamnaya, Bell Beakers from Iberia, ...). They should be respected but common sense and genetic/archaelogical evidences need to be studied to check their theories/claims.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4 (Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun/Indo-Aryan)

    mtdna: H28 (Globular Amphora, Bronze Age Latvia) > H28a (Ruthenian)

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    It seems Sredny Stog and the R1a-M417 guy only recently arrived in the region from the east so Sredny Stog had very diverse groups. Some where Ukraine_HG-like some eef-like and some mixed with something progress_eneolithic like. Early PIE is probably frome somewhere between the Don and Volga river (Repin culture?)
    I think it went like that:

    the farmers arrive at the dneper and they mix with locals creating the SS
    this mixed population stormed the steppe west ( suvorovo) and east ( towards the Volga) and towards the north cacasus. They levelled down the steppe like a bulldozer. At the end of this process an homogenaization of the steppe was created. Its name was Yamnaya ( which is Pit-grave culture).

    Sredni Stog is either the father or the grand father of CWC.

  10. #28
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    @rms2

    Many scholars have puzzled over the origins of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. I don't know of any of them who traces CW directly to Sredny Stog.[/QUOTE]

    Of course....sample R1M417 in SS has been discovered in September 2017......

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    We have dozens of Yamnaya samples and there is no trace of R1a among them yet . . .
    Dozens? How many dozens?

    I think if we have one dozen such samples, we're lucky.

    There is a huge swath of the Russian steppe which is virtually untouched by geneticists, and as far as I know none of the kurgans in the Carpathian basin has been tapped for ancient y-dna.
     


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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I think it went like that:

    the farmers arrive at the dneper and they mix with locals creating the SS
    this mixed population stormed the steppe west ( suvorovo) and east ( towards the Volga) and towards the north cacasus. They levelled down the steppe like a bulldozer. At the end of this process an homogenaization of the steppe was created. Its name was Yamnaya ( which is Pit-grave culture).

    Sredni Stog is either the father or the grand father of CWC.
    Except that's fantasy. There's no evidence of such a scenario.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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