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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #611
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    My latest understanding on N-M2783 in Balts.

    1) Tarand Graves brings N to Baltics with guys like "Baltic_EST_IA:0LS10" mixing with local BA populations (LVA_BA, EST_BA) and Germanic folk (proxy SWE_IA) to produce Baltic Finns or Estonian IA type population.
    "sample": "Test1:Baltic_EST_IA",
    "fit": 1.4437,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 48.33,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 29.17,
    "SWE_IA": 22.5,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 0,

    2) In the coasts and islands of Estonia and Latvia a more "Western" variation of Estonian_IA evolves (i.e. Saaremaa 500 BCE - Baltic_EST_IA_-_X04_1) which is richer in both SWE_IA and LVA_BA:
    "sample": "Test1:Baltic_EST_IA_-_X04_1",
    "fit": 2.256,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 49.17,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 30.83,
    "SWE_IA": 20,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 0,

    3) This "Oeselian" guy mixes with some local LVA_BA populations to start new burial tradition in the Baltics. Barrows with stone encirclements (edit - West Lithunian stone circle graves), which is fusion of Central Europe and Tarand (somewhere 1st century AD if I am not wrong). This tradition goes East into sparcely populated inlands North Lithuania, South Latvia, etc, North Lithuanian Barrow Culture 300-500(?) AD (Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res) is one of related cultures:
    "sample": "Test1:Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res",
    "fit": 4.715,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 66.67,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_X04_1": 33.33,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 0,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 0,
    "SWE_IA": 0,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 0,

    4) East Balts of East Lithuanian Barrow Culture (influences from Vielbark via Sudovia and NLBC on remains of Brushed Pottery Culture) go West.. and North, bringing tons of HUN_Avar_Szolad type genetics into Baltics and assimilating local cocktail rich in N-M2783:
    "sample": "Test2:Lithuanian",
    "fit": 1.4859,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 54.17,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 30.83,
    "Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res": 15,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 0,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,

    5) In Latvia they meet Baltic Finns proper and Hun_Avar_Szolad type of genetics washes out a bit:
    "sample": "Test1:Latvian",
    "fit": 0.9797,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 38.33,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 32.5,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 19.17,
    "Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res": 10,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,

    Please note, Latvians have additional EST_IA from Livonians most likely, but even somewhat less Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res, and also our proportion of N-M2783 is slightly lower than Lithuanian.

    ...
    Does this make any sense? If no, what are the weak points here?
    Last edited by parastais; 06-02-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  2. #612
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    Few problems:
    1) Malaren axes and molds in NE Lithuania - hinting at earlier entrance of N
    2) Hun_Avar_Szolad - Baltic bronze and Iron Age seem to largely lack this type of admixture that goes up to 50% in modern Lithuanians (Also ~20% Estonians). Is that even possible that (large part bof genes of) East Balts arrived from further South (East?) after 500 AD? Seems a bit too high for being just Slavic wives mediated.

  3. #613
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    Linguistically it could make some sense either even for Lithuanian to have some “post-Germanic contacts” Finnic “boat lords”.

    Laiva (Lith, Latv - boat) - ultimately from Germanic ‘flawja’, through Finnic f got dropped and awj<>ajw laiva (Finnish)
    Kunigas (Lith - priest, kungs Latv - lord) - ultimately from Germanic ‘kuningaz’ but also Finnish ‘kuningas’

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

     spruithean (06-16-2019)

  5. #614
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    It seems like Saaremaa Iron Age genes are also favored at some trace level by Polish and Belorussians (both other nations that have some N-M2783 presence. So, perhaps it is somewhat probable that founder of M2783 carried that type of admixture:


    But interesting and curious case is Golden Horde Euro, he stubbornly prefers Estonian IA to Saaremaa, and if Estonian IA is not present and forced to chose between early migrant from Estonian paper or Saaremaa he picks early migrant. So, perhaps that guy indeed is from some archaic Eastern (para)Balto-Slavic population.

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     palamede (06-18-2019),  spruithean (06-16-2019)

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