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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #1201
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    One of the ways:
    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    Distance: 4.6906% / 0.04690636
    71.2 Baltic_LVA_BA
    28.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
    0.0 SWE_IA

    Target: Baltic_LTU_IA
    Distance: 1.1257% / 0.01125684
    86.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    13.2 SWE_IA
    0.0 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe

    Except too high distance for 0LS10, so better source pops could be suggested.

    Edit, slightly better if Kras001 is added, but something is missing, maybe better Scythian/Sarmatian source.
    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    Distance: 4.2048% / 0.04204822
    76.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    19.0 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
    4.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    0.0 SWE_IA

    Sarmatian_RUS_Pokrovka instead of Caspian shaves distance a bit too, but still 4% distance stays.

    Edit:
    Target: Baltic_EST_IA
    Distance: 2.4332% / 0.02433178
    66.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    22.2 SWE_IA
    8.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Pokrovka
    2.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    EST_IA average has quite some Germanic. But 0LS likely not.
    Last edited by parastais; 08-11-2022 at 11:39 AM.

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  3. #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    I get that you have a certain level of enthusiasm for this kind of life style but when we try to reconcile these Ananyino ideas with genetics it's not really going to work because they simply have too much Siberian to have much impact, unless of course Saami people as a whole are Ananyino too which is not likely at all.
    The key idea might be something like DA238+older samples from around the Baltic, instead of NEO538 or Ananyino. Something that leads us closer to modern people instead of away.
    These two have ancestry from the Gulf and eastern Ladoga(slightly east of old border) and there does seem to be a common theme, although the sources are probably not ideal.

    Target: Suursaari
    Distance: 2.5601% / 0.02560058
    42.0 POL_Weklice_Goths_50BC-200AD:R10633
    17.6 SWE_Battle_Axe:Olsund
    13.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IAA238
    12.2 EST_MA:TPM003
    10.0 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    4.8 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early:Gyvakarai1_10bp

    Target: East_Karelia
    Distance: 2.3394% / 0.02339375
    31.0 EST_MA:TPM003
    24.2 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    17.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IAA238
    12.6 SWE_Battle_Axe:Olsund
    8.0 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early:Gyvakarai1_10bp
    7.0 POL_Weklice_Goths_50BC-200AD:R10633
    Who is DA238.SG? Which publication is DA238.SG from? From what I know, DA238, 234, 236 are so-called "ancFinn" and "ancSaami", but they are not present in the Allen Ancient Genetics Database from the Reich Group and they're usually really good about getting published data from the Willerslev/Krause/Burger groups into the database once they've been published.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 08-11-2022 at 01:24 PM.
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    All right, so I've been trying to wrap my head around this thread. A few links to some of the posts that paint the broad picture, set out the terms of the debate, unanswered questions, etc. (for my own reference as much as for others):

    Phylogeny of N-L550 and its brother clade N-Z1934 plus their % occurrence in Finns:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post853913

    Figure 3 of the following article: looking at N3a3 vs N3a4, for the "Finnic" vs "Baltic" distribution of N-Z1934 and N-L550:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...02929716301604

    Basal branches of Baltic L-550 mostly found in Sweden, even though later branches found in Balts and Estonians:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post846953

    Basal branches of L-550 found in 2 Tarand Graves:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post777645

    KAM axes and their significance:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post851340

    Cultural situation in Baltic region in the relevant timeframes:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....942#post848942
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post849032

    Simple clean models for peri-Baltic populations:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post848682

    Points in favor of Saami-related migrations involving some Ananyino-related groups instead of just Textile-ware-related groups alone:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post854515

    Marvele and Bailuliai individuals, from Baltic cultures, some of which have Est_IA_OLS10 ancestry:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post861292

    Jaakko Hakkinen seems to be pushing towards a late spread of West Uralic:
    https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=5
    (This contrasts greatly which his previous arguments on this forum, and this paper must be published super recently since he cites Lang's 2020 book)

    For those who are extremely familiar with all this territory already, feel free to skip.

    Edit:
    Adding this here, what happened with Fatyanovo being replaced by Baltic_BA:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post849707
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post849712
    (But possibly not completely because of OLS10 having higher EEF than the local Baltic_BA's, like parastais said)
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 08-11-2022 at 01:49 PM.
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  6. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Who is DA238.SG? Which publication is DA238.SG from? From what I know, DA238, 234, 236 are so-called "ancFinn" and "ancSaami", but they are not present in the Allen Ancient Genetics Database from the Reich Group and they're usually really good about getting published data from the Willerslev/Krause/Burger groups into the database once they've been published.
    DA236, DA234, DA237 and DA238 are from Sikora et al. 2019. All four are females from Levanluhta, Finland, dated ~1300-1525 ybp. DA236 is labeled as Finnish_IA, while the other three are labeled as Saami_IA.

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  8. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Who is DA238.SG? Which publication is DA238.SG from? From what I know, DA238, 234, 236 are so-called "ancFinn" and "ancSaami", but they are not present in the Allen Ancient Genetics Database from the Reich Group and they're usually really good about getting published data from the Willerslev/Krause/Burger groups into the database once they've been published.
    DA238 is called JK1963 in the Reich dataset. The name JK1963 was used in Lamnidis et al. 2018 ("Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe") and the name DA238 was used in Sikora et al. 2019 ("The population history of northeastern Siberia since the Pleistocene").

    DA238/JK1963 is the most eastern-shifted sample from Levänluhta on G25, and in isotope analysis it was found to have relied on terrestrial foodstuffs (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/448829-1.pdf):

    In summary, the 87Sr/86Sr data suggest, that individual JK1963/DA238 was probably a local relying on terrestrial foodstuffs, while individuals JK1968/DA234 and JK2067/DA237 might well have been locals incorporating a component of Baltic sea resources in their diet. Individual JA2065/DA236 could have been of foreign origin, or a local using almost exclusively Baltic Sea dietary items.

    So it could be that the population in the inland of Finland was less mixed than the population on the coasts, and since Levänluhta is on the coast, the samples from Levänluhta might not be representative of what the population in the inland looked like.

    Anthropologists also found the Saami with the highest cephalic index and darkest pigmentation lived in the inland of Norway and Sweden (https://libgen.lc/index.php?req=races+europe+coon):

    There are, however, regional differences; the center of extreme round headedness lies among the inland groups in northern Norway, while the Swedish, Finnish, and Kola Peninsula Lapps become progressively narrower headed. The mean for the purest Reindeer Lapps of Norway is 87; for the eastemmost Lapps, 80 to 83. [...] The selected "pure" groups, Bryn's Reindeer Lapps, and some of Geyer's mountain and forest Lapps from Sweden, have seventy per cent or over of this dark hair, while the fairest Lapps, with a majority of brown and blond shades, are found in Finland and in the Kola Peninsula. [...] Pure dark eyes are found among one-third of Reindeer Lapps, and among as few as eight per cent in the total of Lapps from Norway.[14] Pure light and light-mixed eyes are commonest among the Lapps of Finland, where they total between thirty and forty per cent, and least common among the Reindeer Lapps of interior Norway and Sweden.

    People keep assuming that the samples from Levänluhta are Saami, even though that's not necessarily the case based on Rahkonen's paper from 2017 (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):

    The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th-8th centuries AD. Similar buri-als are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. The results of an onomastic study show that the earliest Finnish maritime toponyms appeared in the 9th century and the earliest Swedish toponyms in the late 13th century. This means that the burials most probably were not conducted by Finnish or Swedish speaking populations. In Vöyri, no obvious Saami toponyms are found, but in Isokyrö, a few Saami names can be recognized. Baltic toponyms are completely unknown. The words behind the names of the largest local rivers could possibly be derived from Proto-Finno-Permian, but alternatively it is possible that they represent obscure names of Paleo-European origin. Thus, the most probable linguistic groups behind the water burials might be speakers of the West Uralic x-language or Paleo-European.

    We don't know what speakers of Rahkonen's x-language were like genetically, so they might well be similar to Saami. But Rahkonen's option that the Levänluhta burials are associated with speakers of Paleo-European seems unlikely based on genetic data.

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  10. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nganasankhan View Post
    DA238 is called JK1963 in the Reich dataset. The name JK1963 was used in Lamnidis et al. 2018 ("Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe") and the name DA238 was used in Sikora et al. 2019 ("The population history of northeastern Siberia since the Pleistocene").

    DA238/JK1963 is the most eastern-shifted sample from Levänluhta on G25, and in isotope analysis it was found to have relied on terrestrial foodstuffs (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/448829-1.pdf):

    In summary, the 87Sr/86Sr data suggest, that individual JK1963/DA238 was probably a local relying on terrestrial foodstuffs, while individuals JK1968/DA234 and JK2067/DA237 might well have been locals incorporating a component of Baltic sea resources in their diet. Individual JA2065/DA236 could have been of foreign origin, or a local using almost exclusively Baltic Sea dietary items.

    So it could be that the population in the inland of Finland was less mixed than the population on the coasts, and since Levänluhta is on the coast, the samples from Levänluhta might not be representative of what the population in the inland looked like.

    Anthropologists also found the Saami with the highest cephalic index and darkest pigmentation lived in the inland of Norway and Sweden (https://libgen.lc/index.php?req=races+europe+coon):

    There are, however, regional differences; the center of extreme round headedness lies among the inland groups in northern Norway, while the Swedish, Finnish, and Kola Peninsula Lapps become progressively narrower headed. The mean for the purest Reindeer Lapps of Norway is 87; for the eastemmost Lapps, 80 to 83. [...] The selected "pure" groups, Bryn's Reindeer Lapps, and some of Geyer's mountain and forest Lapps from Sweden, have seventy per cent or over of this dark hair, while the fairest Lapps, with a majority of brown and blond shades, are found in Finland and in the Kola Peninsula. [...] Pure dark eyes are found among one-third of Reindeer Lapps, and among as few as eight per cent in the total of Lapps from Norway.[14] Pure light and light-mixed eyes are commonest among the Lapps of Finland, where they total between thirty and forty per cent, and least common among the Reindeer Lapps of interior Norway and Sweden.

    People keep assuming that the samples from Levänluhta are Saami, even though that's not necessarily the case based on Rahkonen's paper from 2017 (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):

    The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th-8th centuries AD. Similar buri-als are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. The results of an onomastic study show that the earliest Finnish maritime toponyms appeared in the 9th century and the earliest Swedish toponyms in the late 13th century. This means that the burials most probably were not conducted by Finnish or Swedish speaking populations. In Vöyri, no obvious Saami toponyms are found, but in Isokyrö, a few Saami names can be recognized. Baltic toponyms are completely unknown. The words behind the names of the largest local rivers could possibly be derived from Proto-Finno-Permian, but alternatively it is possible that they represent obscure names of Paleo-European origin. Thus, the most probable linguistic groups behind the water burials might be speakers of the West Uralic x-language or Paleo-European.

    We don't know what speakers of Rahkonen's x-language were like genetically, so they might well be similar to Saami. But Rahkonen's option that the Levänluhta burials are associated with speakers of Paleo-European seems unlikely based on genetic data.
    Thanks for clarifying!
    Quoted from this Forum:

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  11. #1207
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    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    Distance: 2.3575% / 0.02357506
    54.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
    29.2 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    11.4 RUS_Volosovo_N
    4.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    Distance: 3.7517% / 0.03751736
    75.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
    20.2 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    4.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    This model works a lot better for OLS10. Still not the best for V10, which clusters much closer to the later EST_IA samples, despite a slightly higher percentage of kra001-like ancestry.

    Also keep in mind that V10 belongs to a rare, but still existent subclade. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS214/

    OLS10 on the other hand, apparently belongs to an extinct, or yet unsampled branch of pre N-L1026. https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS6967/

    These samples are the earliest non-local outliers, but I think the Estonian early-Tarands as a whole, have their origin in "Advanced Textile Ware" AKA "pre-D'yakovo culture". What happened between their departure and arrival is completely unsettled IMO, especially considering the lack of data from the Dnieper-Dvina culture and even Brushed Pottery culture, which occupied the areas between. Both are only known from settlement sites (no graves).

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  13. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    Distance: 2.3575% / 0.02357506
    54.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
    29.2 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    11.4 RUS_Volosovo_N
    4.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    Distance: 3.7517% / 0.03751736
    75.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
    20.2 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    4.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

    This model works a lot better for OLS10. Still not the best for V10, which clusters much closer to the later EST_IA samples, despite a slightly higher percentage of kra001-like ancestry.

    Also keep in mind that V10 belongs to a rare, but still existent subclade. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS214/

    OLS10 on the other hand, apparently belongs to an extinct, or yet unsampled branch of pre N-L1026. https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS6967/

    These samples are the earliest non-local outliers, but I think the Estonian early-Tarands as a whole, have their origin in "Advanced Textile Ware" AKA "pre-D'yakovo culture". What happened between their departure and arrival is completely unsettled IMO, especially considering the lack of data from the Dnieper-Dvina culture and even Brushed Pottery culture, which occupied the areas between. Both are only known from settlement sites (no graves).
    This indeed looks good for 0LS10.
    I can't find RUS_Volosovo_N in G25 Davidsky datasets. Where did you get it from? Can you share coords?

    What is the culture for Kaz_Karagash?
    Last edited by parastais; 08-11-2022 at 07:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    This indeed looks good for 0LS10.
    I can't find RUS_Volosovo_N in G25 Davidsky datasets. Where did you get it from? Can you share coords?
    VladimirTaraskin shared them in this thread. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....or-PIE/page141

    Code:
    RUS_Volosovo_N:BER001,0.134311,0.062963,0.156882,0 .205106,0.030159,0.068049,0.00376,0.006923,0.00020 5,-0.059956,0.006333,-0.024428,0.026908,-0.028763,0.014658,0.019093,0.000913,0.001394,-0.028031,0.034016,0.031944,0.025225,0.007395,-0.049164,0.011616
    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    What is the culture for Kaz_Karagash?
    Andronovo 1757-1666 cal BC.

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  17. #1210
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    Hmm

    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    Distance: 2.9518% / 0.02951772
    53.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
    30.8 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    11.0 RUS_Volosovo_N:BER001
    4.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    0.0 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA

    But:
    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    Distance: 4.2351% / 0.04235074
    70.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    24.6 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    4.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    0.4 RUS_Volosovo_N:BER001
    0.0 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA

    And these two are rather Krasnoyarsk like:
    Target: FIN_Levanluhta_IAA238
    Distance: 3.4020% / 0.03401987
    34.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    27.2 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    19.8 RUS_Volosovo_N:BER001
    18.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    0.0 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA

    Target: RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov
    Distance: 5.2079% / 0.05207901
    42.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    35.6 RUS_Volosovo_N:BER001
    22.0 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
    0.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
    0.0 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA

    Not sure how to make some sense here. Or find a trend.

    Edit:
    Ok, Fatyanovo and Karagash are quite similar. Maybe that is why V10 preferred Fatyanovo. Just arithmetical reasons.

    Anyway seems like before meeting Balts - West Uralics were a 3 way mix of Kras001, Volosovo and Andronovo/Fatyanovo. Besides likely two different profiles:
    Southern one which was mainly Andronovo/Fatyanovo, and Northern one mainly Kras001&Volosovo.

    Or maybe Southern route went through Fatyanovo likes and picked up a lot of locals, whereas Northern route went through Volosovo likes and picked less locals, preserved more of Kras001. Which would be logical because Southern populations would be agricultural and therefore keep autosomes better. Later Southern route would end up in Estonia, Northern route in Saami. And they met in Finland.
    Last edited by parastais; 08-11-2022 at 09:23 PM.

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