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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Why couldnt the early Finns have settled heavily in C Sweden before settling in Estonia and the Baltics? Could something like that work?



    Which sample is this and how much Baltic shift does it show?

    Also, aren't all Gothic samples a little bit Eastern-shifted compared to the rest of the Germanics? Is there any evidence of low-level Finnic admix in Saarema and Goths from Kowalewko and from elsewhere compared to other Germanic people?
    Before topic turned into “Slavs from Poland” vs “Slavs from Kiev Culture” discussion, those were mentioned in
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....dieval-Moravia

    N was a low quality sample from later Maslomecz, Poland. Seemingly Latvian like.

    About Finns I got hypothesis it was related to different early Finnic clans taking up different ecological niches:
    L550 were similar to later randalist folk, likely sea fishers, coast dwellers
    L1022 were agriculturalists

    Such a dychitomy was present 1000 years later in Latvia, where Liivi were living on a sea coast in fishermen villages and Latvians doing land. When Soviets closed free fishing in the sea, economic foundation of Liivi disappeared, they left their villages and assimilated into Latvians.

    Agriculture gives advantage in population size. Therefore inland L1022 would largely replace L550 in Estonia. However L1025 got assimilated into Balts and what is strange - got into working previously unused land (fertile but unworkable without proper iron tools in say Zemgale). Which let them spread.

    These are all of course just my assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Why couldnt the early Finns have settled heavily in C Sweden before settling in Estonia and the Baltics? Could something like that work?
    Not really a serious idea IMO. Requires a lot of language shifting across the board and offers little in return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Also, aren't all Gothic samples a little bit Eastern-shifted compared to the rest of the Germanics? Is there any evidence of low-level Finnic admix in Saarema and Goths from Kowalewko and from elsewhere compared to other Germanic people?
    It's very uneven for Goths. Probably linked with recent rather than old admixture. One of the samples from Kowalewko PCA0015 has the Finland-specific(not Finnic) H1f1a. I'm not sure if that's on G25 probably not. It might be a good idea to have a thread for Gothic/Kowalewko genetics without discussion about the Slavic homeland.

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  5. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Agriculture gives advantage in population size. Therefore inland L1022 would largely replace L550 in Estonia. However L1025 got assimilated into Balts and what is strange - got into working previously unused land (fertile but unworkable without proper iron tools in say Zemgale). Which let them spread.

    These are all of course just my assumptions.
    I was considering something similar. The early-Tarands are thought to represent a very small subset of Iron Age Estonians. The vast majority of whom, were buried in a way that left no trace.

    The argument against this being: even the Medieval Estonian samples are only N-L550. A few of them even come from southern/inland areas, like IIf (Otepää, Valga). The early-Tarands were supposedly elite families, who lived in hillforts, and ruled over plots of land used for farming. Despite being coastal, they are thought to be agriculturalists.

    I've seen some people speculate that N-L1022 arrived in Estonia from Finland, but that is completely based on modern diversity. I recall something about migrations from Finland to Estonia in historical times, but I can't remember where I read that. N-Z1936 is also found in Estonians, probably recent arrivals from Finland or Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    N-Z1936 is also found in Estonians, probably recent arrivals from Finland or Russia.
    If that's the case, why there are deep, apparently well established N-Z1936 lineages in Estonia? Pls, check Fig 2:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6.pdf

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    @Huck,
    Semi related:
    Do you have any info on R1a statistics in Finland?
    I.e. are they Z92, CTS1211, M458, other Euro R1a, Z93? What is the distribution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    @Huck,
    Semi related:
    Do you have any info on R1a statistics in Finland?
    I.e. are they Z92, CTS1211, M458, other Euro R1a, Z93? What is the distribution?
    Unluckily I don't, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    If that's the case, why there are deep, apparently well established N-Z1936 lineages in Estonia? Pls, check Fig 2:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6.pdf
    That could be illusory if there was a migration from an area with already greater diversity. That figure is based on only 33 samples, if there was more representation from Finland/Russia in that article, you may see that the Estonian branches are downstream/close matches.

    I am open to alternatives, however because there is already aDNA from BA-IA-MA Estonia with zero N-Z1936, I favor a scenario where they came later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    That could be illusory if there was a migration from an area with already greater diversity.
    Good point, maybe you're right. There are fex 17 Finnish samples in the study, but it is not too clear why they are not present in the phylogenic tree. The Estonian samples in Fig 2 seem to be connected to just one Karelian and one Veps, for some reason. They are all still "Karelian" N-VL62's, if I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Do you have any info on R1a statistics in Finland?
    Most of the R1a in Finland belongs to typical Slavic/Scandinavian subclades which do not have Finland-specific subclades. There are some notable exceptions to that which make up a large share although I do not think there are reliable statistics.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1147/
    Two subclades found in South Ostrobothnia and Karelia respectively. Origin unclear. Remote sibling clade in the British isles is found in central Scotland and near Oxford.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY32105/
    This one is definitely from somewhere around Ukraine/Belarus about 2000 years ago but it seems to have arrived north quite early and not in the main phase of Slavic contact. It could be linked with the supposed early contacts between Baltic Finnic speakers and Slavic. It's found in eastern and northern Finland and it's the most prominent subclade in Finland.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-CTS5149/
    This one is notable not because of frequency so much as it being the one that V10 had. It is found only in SW Finland.

    There's one more subclade which may be of some interest although not technically found in Finland.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y13467/
    Seems to be of eastern origin from Russia but found in Balts, Swedes and Leningrad Oblast Finns(Ingrians). People in the Swedish province it's found in however have strong links to the Forest Finns who moved there in the 17th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Most of the R1a in Finland belongs to typical Slavic/Scandinavian subclades which do not have Finland-specific subclades. There are some notable exceptions to that which make up a large share although I do not think there are reliable statistics.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1147/
    Two subclades found in South Ostrobothnia and Karelia respectively. Origin unclear. Remote sibling clade in the British isles is found in central Scotland and near Oxford.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY32105/
    This one is definitely from somewhere around Ukraine/Belarus about 2000 years ago but it seems to have arrived north quite early and not in the main phase of Slavic contact. It could be linked with the supposed early contacts between Baltic Finnic speakers and Slavic. It's found in eastern and northern Finland and it's the most prominent subclade in Finland.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-CTS5149/
    This one is notable not because of frequency so much as it being the one that V10 had. It is found only in SW Finland.

    There's one more subclade which may be of some interest although not technically found in Finland.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y13467/
    Seems to be of eastern origin from Russia but found in Balts, Swedes and Leningrad Oblast Finns(Ingrians). People in the Swedish province it's found in however have strong links to the Forest Finns who moved there in the 17th century.
    Wikipedia says there is only 5% R1a in Finns, but I had seen also other numbers.
    Is 5% reliable?
    But

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