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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #641
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    NW Lithuania used to be part of Germany between wars. Memelland, East Prussia.
    So, it could be relatively recent admixture.

    Interesting piece about Szolad eating up Unetice.

    Also when I did those long time ago, Lithuanians had more Szolad and less Baltic_BA. @Zelto, did you use that Slavicish Szolad sample or average of both Slavicish and mixed with Germanic-ish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Hun_Szolad_MA is actually a mix of the Germanic(Lombard) newcomers and the natives living there. It's a rather southern average in comparison with Danes, Norwegians even Dutch. That's why it's eating some of the Croatia_IA.
    Hun_Szolad were two samples. Balto-Slavic mom and her R1b Germanic mixed son. Or something like that.

  3. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Hun_Szolad were two samples. Balto-Slavic mom and her R1b Germanic mixed son. Or something like that.
    You're thinking about Avar_Szolad.
    Last edited by Helves; 05-15-2021 at 06:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Youäre thinking about Avar_Szolad.
    Thanks, missed there were several of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    You're thinking about Avar_Szolad.
    Do you know the timing and context for HRV_IA?
    What was that culture?

  7. #646
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    Upon checking, there are actually 30 HUN_MA_Szolad samples.

    Here is the same model, but with HUN_Avar_Szolad used instead. Not a huge difference, except for the Unetice now in Latvians.

    Target: Lithuanian_VZ
    Distance: 1.4223% / 0.01422266
    53.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
    24.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    15.0 SWE_IA
    6.6 HRV_IA

    Target: Lithuanian_VA
    Distance: 1.2346% / 0.01234567
    42.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    41.2 Baltic_LVA_BA
    10.2 Baltic_EST_IA
    6.4 HRV_IA
    0.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA

    Target: Lithuanian_SZ
    Distance: 1.1494% / 0.01149448
    57.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    25.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    7.8 Baltic_EST_IA
    5.8 HRV_IA
    2.8 SWE_IA
    0.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA

    Target: Lithuanian_RA
    Distance: 1.5290% / 0.01528982
    47.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    43.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
    6.8 Baltic_EST_IA
    3.0 HRV_IA

    Target: Lithuanian_PZ
    Distance: 1.3215% / 0.01321494
    55.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
    23.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    16.6 SWE_IA
    4.8 Baltic_LTU_BA

    Target: Lithuanian_PA
    Distance: 1.2826% / 0.01282580
    48.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    34.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
    7.8 Baltic_EST_IA
    6.2 HRV_IA
    3.0 SWE_IA
    0.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA

    Target: Latvian
    Distance: 1.0414% / 0.01041363
    53.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
    30.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
    6.8 Baltic_EST_IA
    5.2 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    3.4 SWE_IA

    Perhaps this is the result of German admixture in Latvia?

    HRV_IA is from Croatia, the closest modern population to it in G25 are North Italians.

    Edit: Anyways, I only wanted to see how much SWE_IA would be in Balts, after accounting for Estonian_IA in Helves' model.
    Last edited by Zelto; 05-15-2021 at 08:00 PM.

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  9. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Do you know the timing and context for HRV_IA?
    What was that culture?
    From this study
    Dated: 805-597 calBCE
    Site: Jazinka Cave, Croatia

    Probably Illyrian?

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  11. #648
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    “ Not a huge difference, except for the Unetice now in Latvians.”
    For Aukstaitians - they are almost 50/50 Avar vs Baltic_BA now. Before they were majority Baltic_BA.

    Edit: but interesting difference between Zemaitians and Aukstaitians. Either Slavic admixture in Aukstaitians or preSlavic differences.
    Last edited by parastais; 05-15-2021 at 08:09 PM.

  12. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    “ Not a huge difference, except for the Unetice now in Latvians.”
    For Aukstaitians - they are almost 50/50 Avar vs Baltic_BA now. Before they were majority Baltic_BA.

    Edit: but interesting difference between Zemaitians and Aukstaitians. Either Slavic admixture in Aukstaitians or preSlavic differences.
    Its not perfect because both HUN_Avar_Szolad samples are part Baltic_LTA/LTU_BA, so that percentage may be somewhat interchangeable.

    There is some pronounced regional variation in Lithuania though. I imagine the same would be true for Latvia if there were more samples.

    Balts definitely do have some Estonian_IA ancestry. It's hard to imagine this could be due to anything other than the arrival of N-L1025 to the region.
    Last edited by Zelto; 05-15-2021 at 08:34 PM.

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  14. #650
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    This has already been discussed here, but modern Estonians belong to N subclades downstream from Balts (N-L1025+) and Finns/NW Russians (N-Y5004+, N-Z1936+). Ilumae et al. (2016) only tested to the N-VL29 level however, no early or Estonian specific subclades of N-L550 have been tested at YFull, nor in any of the FTDNA projects I checked.

    With that in mind, I noticed something odd when re-reading Saag et al. (2019). The Middle Age Estonian N samples (IIa, IIf and IIg) are all N-L550. This wouldn't be weird if they belonged to "Baltic" subclades, as modern Estonians do. However, that does not seem to be the case unless there are quality issues.

    Sample IIa is the highest coverage sample in the entire study and made its way to YFull. Despite this, it currently sits at N-L550* indicating it may be a dead branch. I also found this blog post. http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.com/20...a-aspects.html

    Another thing, each of these samples come from a different corner of Estonia. Karja, Saaremaa, Pada, Laane-Viru and Otepaa, Valgamaa. So what does this mean? Obviously there is a lack of samples, although it still seems strange that the subclades found in modern Estonians, weren't present at all in three geographically distant Middle Age Estonians.

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