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Thread: Haplogroup N: Zone of Origin & Early Dispersals [split]

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    Haplogroup N: Zone of Origin & Early Dispersals [split]

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    If that is so then is it possible that N first occurred among K2 people who moved into Mongolia and China by the north Eurasian route?
    That might explain the fact that the earliest offshoot from yDNA N is European. (And not just Balkan, either. N-P189 has been found in Hungary, Slovakia, Italy, France, and the Netherlands.)

    The second offshoot from N has been found in South India, China, Vietnam, and Eastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    That might explain the fact that the earliest offshoot from yDNA N is European. (And not just Balkan, either. N-P189 has been found in Hungary, Slovakia, Italy, France, and the Netherlands.)

    The second offshoot from N has been found in South India, China, Vietnam, and Eastern Europe.
    How do we know which is the earliest offshoot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    How do we know which is the earliest offshoot?
    I was distinguishing N-M178 (which many publications and researchers treat as the "main" subclade of N) from earlier-separated branches. More specifically: If we treat the lineage running down to N-M178 as the "trunk" of the N haplotree, then clades branch off from this trunk in the following chronological order:
    1) N-P189, Europe
    2) N-F2905, Eastern Europe, South India, China, Vietnam
    3) N-L666, Eastern Europe, Northern Asia, China, Vietnam

    Thus, I am using the term earliest in a very loose sense.

    Strictly speaking, a bifurcation creates two sub-branches simultaneously. Each sub-branch's modern TMRCA (calculated from people living today) is due to subsequent population history. That is, whichever sub-branch expanded first has an older MRCA.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 11-10-2014 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I would not disagree with the above much except perhaps making lineage plural for southern India. As I mentioned I wanted to highlight the split. As of now, southern India harbors two lines under the F650 level.
    Yes, that is true. However, I do not see much apparent evidence for an origin of NO-M214 in India; the diversity of O-M175 lineages is much greater in modern East and Southeast Asia, and modern representatives of N-M231 are quite useless for determining the location of origin of the clade because they all have emerged from a bottleneck roughly 20,000 years after the MRCA of O-M175 and N-M231. If derivatives of NO-M214 have spread to India from East or Southeast Asia, then you have only one subclade of K2a that might be indigenous to South Asia (that to which the HG03742 Telugu individual belongs).

    On the other hand, I do think the question of diversity within the NO-M214 clade in South Asia warrants careful investigation. Some diversity might be lurking at almost invisibly rare levels as a result of subsequent genetic replacements in South Asia (regardless of whether those replacements were endogenous or exogenous).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    However, I do not see much apparent evidence for an origin of NO-M214 in India; the diversity of O-M175 lineages is much greater in modern East and Southeast Asia, and modern representatives of N-M231 are quite useless for determining the location of origin of the clade because they all have emerged from a bottleneck roughly 20,000 years after the MRCA of O-M175 and N-M231.
    Actually, the opposite is more logical. If we make the reasonable assumption that (prior to the agricultural population explosion) the splitting of a clade into new subclades is caused primarily by migration and expansion, then yDNA O represents a vigorous migration and expansion into East and Southeast Asia 57 SNPs after the split of NO; whereas yDNA N represents a remnant who merely survived (with little migration or expansion) until 249 SNPs after the split of NO.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 11-10-2014 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Actually, the opposite is more logical. If we make the reasonable assumption that (prior to the agricultural population explosion) the splitting of a clade into new subclades is caused primarily by migration and expansion, then yDNA O represents a vigorous migration and expansion into East and Southeast Asia 57 SNPs after the split of NO; whereas yDNA N represents a remnant who merely survived (without expansion) until 249 SNPs after the split of NO.
    Haplogroup O-M175 also has emerged from a bottleneck, although after a much shorter span of only about 6,000 to 7,000 years subsequent to the MRCA of N-M231 and O-M175.

    In any case, representatives of haplogroup N are scattered from northwestern Europe to southeastern Asia and from southwestern Asia to Chukotka. They are practically everywhere in Eurasia (although with greatly varying proportions of the total population in each area). What is the TMRCA of all known representatives of the N1a-P189 subclade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    What is the TMRCA of all known representatives of the N1a-P189 subclade?
    The maximum number of BigY-reliable SNPs since their MRCA is 39, according to YFull, so the TMRCA is less than 6000 years by the usual reckoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The maximum number of BigY-reliable SNPs since their MRCA is 39, according to YFull, so the TMRCA is less than 6000 years by the usual reckoning.
    Thank you. This means that, assuming that the lack of N1a-P189 in samples of modern Asian populations is not due to sampling error, representatives of N1a-P189 have been in Europe for at least the past 6000 years or so. [EDIT: Note that I also am assuming that the post-bottleneck N1a-P189 "clan" has not packed up their belongings and migrated wholesale into Europe from some indeterminable location without leaving any patrilineal descendant lineage that has survived until present in the former homeland. This is something that everyone assumes when making this sort of biogeographical inference about the past on the basis of the modern distribution of an SNP.] We cannot know where the common ancestor of modern representatives of N1a-P189 has lived prior to 6000 YBP.
    Last edited by Ebizur; 11-10-2014 at 10:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Actually, the opposite is more logical. If we make the reasonable assumption ...
    That is not even an argument actually. Under a population explosion or rapid expansion individual members may be forced to migrate out, but even in that scenario there is no reason that the "center of gravity" will likewise move elsewhere. In fact the shorter length between MRCA of NO and MRCA of O indicates the higher probability that O is closer to the common homeland than N is. This is how population genetics is done actually.

    As for N-P189.2 it is difficult to tell what the significance of it is actually. In order for your theory - its origin and NO's origin closer to Europe - you have to overcome many issues including N2 being abundant in China that lacks LLY22g even if that marker is highly recurrent. They were not fully typed yet. There is also the issue of NO* found in East Asia exclusively. If they all belong to the O clade you have a better case but it should bother you at least.

    The rare N-L732 in Korea came from someone I almost know. He is a childhood friend of someone I know fairly well, though only through online. In fact I am the one who insulted and nagged that acquaintance to test for Geno and he brought along his 2 childhood buddies. There have been about 4 other cases of N who tested for Geno 2.0 so far and all are quite interesting. 1 was the rare N-M128. And the rate at which rare N lineages are found in Korea seems suggesting that more samples may change the picture you envisage.

    P.S. It seems that L732 is not so rare in East Asia after all. But it was initially reported as exclusively European.
    Last edited by Hector; 11-11-2014 at 05:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    Under a population explosion or rapid expansion individual members may be forced to migrate out, but even in that scenario there is no reason that the "center of gravity" will likewise move elsewhere. In fact the shorter length between MRCA of NO and MRCA of O indicates the higher probability that O is closer to the common homeland than N is. This is how population genetics is done actually.
    No, no, and no. Prior to the agricultural revolution, division into subclades was typically the result of a directional migration-and-expansion (e.g., eastward across Beringia). The subclade that underwent rapid expansion is more likely to be the one that migrated; the other, smaller subclade is the surviving remnant who stayed in place, perhaps stalemated by neighbors or natural barriers.

    Even after agriculture this was true more often than not. Perhaps the most obvious case is that of R1b-P311, the parent of P312 and U106. Does any credible researcher claim that the origin of P311 lies at the centroid of its current population (in the middle of the Atlantic)? Of course not--we all recognize that the expansion of P312 and U106 has been primarily directional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    As for N-P189.2 it is difficult to tell what the significance of it is actually.
    It makes any claim that N began in Southeast Asia highly problematic, to say the least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    In order for your theory - its origin and NO's origin closer to Europe - you have to overcome many issues including N2 being abundant in China that lacks LLY22g even if that marker is highly recurrent.
    LLY22g is now known to be almost useless phylogenetically. We have already encountered multiple different N-M178 clusters that lack the traditional LLY22g. Researchers who relied on LLY22g were seriously misled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    The rare N-L732 in Korea came from someone I almost know. He is a childhood friend of someone I know fairly well, though only through online. In fact I am the one who insulted and nagged that acquaintance to test for Geno and he brought along his 2 childhood buddies. There have been about 4 other cases of N who tested for Geno 2.0 so far and all are quite interesting. 1 was the rare N-M128. And the rate at which rare N lineages are found in Korea seems suggesting that more samples may change the picture you envisage.
    Have any of these unusual N men ordered the Big Y test? Have they even transferred their Geno results into FTDNA accounts?

    Aren't you intrigued by the fact that L732 has (so far) shown up only in Eastern Europe and Korea?
    Last edited by lgmayka; 11-11-2014 at 08:33 PM.

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