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    N1c in the Balts

    What is the latest thinking on the origin N1c in the Balts? Is it from a migration during the Mesolithic not associated with Uralic languages or does it indicate Uralic speakers were present in the Baltic region before IE speakers?

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    We have place-name and archaeological evidence suggesting that Uralic speakers were in the Baltic region before IE speakers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2...b_Ware_culture
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-13-2013 at 05:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    We have place-name and archaeological evidence suggesting that Uralic speakers were in the Baltic region before IE speakers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2...b_Ware_culture
    Jean, I don't think you conclusion is fully consistent with the information provided in your link to Wikipedia. Here is a relevant fragment:

    Previously, the dominant view was that the spread of the Comb Ware people was correlated with the diffusion of the Uralic languages, and thus an early Uralic language must have been spoken throughout this culture. However, another more recent view is that the Comb Ware people may have spoken a Paleo-European (pre-Uralic) language, as some toponyms and hydronyms also indicate a non-Uralic, non-Indo-European language at work in some areas.[4] Even then, linguists and archaeologists both have also been skeptical of assigning languages based on the borders of cultural complexes, and it's possible that the Pit-Comb Ware Culture was made up of several languages, one of them being Proto-Uralic.

    It seems that prefix pre- is very inconsistently used in the English language, as it may mean either a language ancestral to a more recent known language or a language that simply precedes such known language on a given territory (but is not ancestral to it). In Polish, we usually use two different prefixes in such cases (pra- and pre-, respectively).
    Last edited by Michał; 12-13-2013 at 10:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Jean, I don't think you conclusion is fully consistent with the information provided in your link to Wikipedia.
    Archaeology does not deal in certainties. That is why I said "suggesting that", rather than "proving that".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Archaeology does not deal in certainties. That is why I said "suggesting that", rather than "proving that".
    I agree with that, but what I meant was rather that your statement did not really reflect the message included in that wikipedia link.
    Anyway, here is a link to another wikipedia page that tries to summarize the past and modern views on the "Proto-Uralic homeland" question:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-U...and_hypotheses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    the past and modern views on the "Proto-Uralic homeland" question
    I don't support the theory of linguistic continuity from the Mesolithic, but neither did I go for the most recent arguments pushing the date of Proto-Uralic later than that of PIE. I discussed the matter with the author of papers leaning to the latter view, who advised me to stick with the tried and tested middle way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I agree with that, but what I meant was rather that your statement did not really reflect the message included in that wikipedia link.
    Yes I understood you. You were surprised to find that the Wikipedia page did not give a simple story, in which all archaeologists are agreed that Pit–Comb Ware culture = Uralic speakers. But is that likely? The day you find a Wikipedia page conveying the impression that all archaeologists and linguists are absolutely certain that a particular prehistoric culture can be equated with a particular ethnos or linguistic community, you know that page needs editing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    What is the latest thinking on the origin N1c in the Balts? Is it from a migration during the Mesolithic not associated with Uralic languages or does it indicate Uralic speakers were present in the Baltic region before IE speakers?
    The Baltic N1c branch looks pre-Uralic, and might actually represent an Indo-European migration, which carried both R1a and N1c to the Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The Baltic N1c branch looks pre-Uralic, and might actually represent an Indo-European migration, which carried both R1a and N1c to the Baltic.
    It seems to me that there is nothing in the structure and age of the N1c-L1025 clade that would suggest your above interpretation, but since this has been already discussed in detail elsewhere, I can only hope that some aDNA data will help us solve this question very soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It seems to me that there is nothing in the structure and age of the N1c-L1025 clade that would suggest your above interpretation, but since this has been already discussed in detail elsewhere, I can only hope that some aDNA data will help us solve this question very soon.
    Finnish linguist and hobby genetecist, known as Jaska on various forums, posited that theory a while back. Maybe things have changed since then, I don't know?

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