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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #611
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    My latest understanding on N-M2783 in Balts.

    1) Tarand Graves brings N to Baltics with guys like "Baltic_EST_IA:0LS10" mixing with local BA populations (LVA_BA, EST_BA) and Germanic folk (proxy SWE_IA) to produce Baltic Finns or Estonian IA type population.
    "sample": "Test1:Baltic_EST_IA",
    "fit": 1.4437,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 48.33,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 29.17,
    "SWE_IA": 22.5,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 0,

    2) In the coasts and islands of Estonia and Latvia a more "Western" variation of Estonian_IA evolves (i.e. Saaremaa 500 BCE - Baltic_EST_IA_-_X04_1) which is richer in both SWE_IA and LVA_BA:
    "sample": "Test1:Baltic_EST_IA_-_X04_1",
    "fit": 2.256,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 49.17,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 30.83,
    "SWE_IA": 20,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 0,

    3) This "Oeselian" guy mixes with some local LVA_BA populations to start new burial tradition in the Baltics. Barrows with stone encirclements (edit - West Lithunian stone circle graves), which is fusion of Central Europe and Tarand (somewhere 1st century AD if I am not wrong). This tradition goes East into sparcely populated inlands North Lithuania, South Latvia, etc, North Lithuanian Barrow Culture 300-500(?) AD (Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res) is one of related cultures:
    "sample": "Test1:Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res",
    "fit": 4.715,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 66.67,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_X04_1": 33.33,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 0,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,
    "Baltic_LTU_BA": 0,
    "SWE_IA": 0,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 0,

    4) East Balts of East Lithuanian Barrow Culture (influences from Vielbark via Sudovia and NLBC on remains of Brushed Pottery Culture) go West.. and North, bringing tons of HUN_Avar_Szolad type genetics into Baltics and assimilating local cocktail rich in N-M2783:
    "sample": "Test2:Lithuanian",
    "fit": 1.4859,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 54.17,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 30.83,
    "Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res": 15,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 0,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,

    5) In Latvia they meet Baltic Finns proper and Hun_Avar_Szolad type of genetics washes out a bit:
    "sample": "Test1:Latvian",
    "fit": 0.9797,
    "Baltic_LVA_BA": 38.33,
    "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 32.5,
    "Baltic_EST_IA": 19.17,
    "Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res": 10,
    "Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10_1": 0,

    Please note, Latvians have additional EST_IA from Livonians most likely, but even somewhat less Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res, and also our proportion of N-M2783 is slightly lower than Lithuanian.

    ...
    Does this make any sense? If no, what are the weak points here?
    Last edited by parastais; 06-02-2019 at 09:36 PM.

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  3. #612
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    Few problems:
    1) Malaren axes and molds in NE Lithuania - hinting at earlier entrance of N
    2) Hun_Avar_Szolad - Baltic bronze and Iron Age seem to largely lack this type of admixture that goes up to 50% in modern Lithuanians (Also ~20% Estonians). Is that even possible that (large part bof genes of) East Balts arrived from further South (East?) after 500 AD? Seems a bit too high for being just Slavic wives mediated.

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    Linguistically it could make some sense either even for Lithuanian to have some “post-Germanic contacts” Finnic “boat lords”.

    Laiva (Lith, Latv - boat) - ultimately from Germanic ‘flawja’, through Finnic f got dropped and awj<>ajw laiva (Finnish)
    Kunigas (Lith - priest, kungs Latv - lord) - ultimately from Germanic ‘kuningaz’ but also Finnish ‘kuningas’

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  7. #614
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    It seems like Saaremaa Iron Age genes are also favored at some trace level by Polish and Belorussians (both other nations that have some N-M2783 presence. So, perhaps it is somewhat probable that founder of M2783 carried that type of admixture:


    But interesting and curious case is Golden Horde Euro, he stubbornly prefers Estonian IA to Saaremaa, and if Estonian IA is not present and forced to chose between early migrant from Estonian paper or Saaremaa he picks early migrant. So, perhaps that guy indeed is from some archaic Eastern (para)Balto-Slavic population.

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  9. #615
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    Fun offtopic, apparently there are some Balts positive for L550 and negative for L1025.
    Me

    Now trying to embrace my FennoScandoRusso-iness.

  10. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Fun offtopic, apparently there are some Balts positive for L550 and negative for L1025.
    YFull shows a Polish entry in N-BY21957 (L550 > S9378 > Y36282 > BY21957). Specifically, Kujawsko-Pomorskie.

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  12. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Fun offtopic, apparently there are some Balts positive for L550 and negative for L1025.
    Me

    Now trying to embrace my FennoScandoRusso-iness.
    Fake News, according to YSEQ I am true M2783.
    Back to Latvian!

  13. #618
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    A while back we discussed ELT50035 (aka YF13597), and later YF16513 appeared.
    Now YF16513 is given it's own branch with F1228 (which YCH205 was shown positive for) and some other SNPs
    Now there's also YF73810, anyone who knows anything about that sample?

  14. #619
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    Interesting take:
    https://phylogeographer.com/n-l1025-...in-the-baltic/

    Based on this and previously found L1025 in North Lithuanian Barrows with Stone circles, it becomes tempting to link expansion of L1025 in Baltics with early centuries AD (1st/2nd) to whole horizon of Barrows with Stone Circles in Latvia and Lithuania. Either those barrows were already West Baltic or assimilated later is a good question.
    Given West (North West) Baltic loanwords in Proto-Finnic (Kallio) it is likely this culture already was Baltic. Perhaps itself a result of Balts assimilating some Fenno-Scandian sea farers on the West Lithuanian coast to create a mix that would later expand.

    This burial type itself got as far as East Lithuanian Barrows culture. But their descendants got further. I.e. some “Semigallians” got up into Estonia (L1025-Z16981?).
    Last edited by parastais; 05-12-2021 at 05:33 AM.

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  16. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Interesting take:
    https://phylogeographer.com/n-l1025-...in-the-baltic/

    Based on this and previously found L1025 in North Lithuanian Barrows with Stone circles, it becomes tempting to link expansion of L1025 in Baltics with early centuries AD (1st/2nd) to whole horizon of Barrows with Stone Circles in Latvia and Lithuania. Either those barrows were already West Baltic or assimilated later is a good question.
    Given West (North West) Baltic loanwords in Proto-Finnic (Kallio) it is likely this culture already was Baltic. Perhaps itself a result of Balts assimilating some Fenno-Scandian sea farers on the West Lithuanian coast to create a mix that would later expand.

    This burial type itself got as far as East Lithuanian Barrows culture. But their descendants got further. I.e. some “Semigallians” got up into Estonia (L1025-Z16981?).
    It's a good tool for viewing subclade diversity in modern samples, however in the write up Provyn suggests N-VL29 originated in the Finnish Kiukainen culture, based on the algorithm. I disagree with this, IMO, N-VL29 and even N-L550 formed in Western Russia, along the Volga. I also think N-L1025 spread at least, a few centuries after the 600BC date he gives.

    Here you can play around with an updated version https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

    N-L550 is still nested around Stockholm, N-L1025 is now pulled slightly farther southeast, in the Gulf of Riga. Not sure this reflects reality though, like I mentioned in the other thread, the Medieval sample in YFull from Saaremaa is some (dead?) branch of N-L550* and the lack of any N in Kivutkalns >200BC.

    There easily could have some N-L550 rich population around Lake Mälaren which, spread there with Early-Trands and Morby/Ilmandu ceramics. This area was an important trade/cultural/political center which could have perhaps leant itself to the distribution of "Fennoscandian" subclades. Some branches seem to be fairly old in Finland as well, although centered around areas with heavy Germanic/Swedish influences (Satakunta; Southern Ostrobothnia). I guess its debatable whether they arrived there with early-Tarands or later Germanics.

    Obviously the main question here is N-L1025 in the Baltic. The situation seems to have become even more confusing with the abandonment of N-M2783 (IIRC, had multiple back mutations), which was almost entirely "Baltic". N-L1025 on the other hand has early "Fennoscandian" branches like N-Y4706.

    I think we can safely say that N-L1025 arrived in Lithuania/Latvia via the coast. Probably not with Akozino-Malar axes/hillforts, which would again conflict with Kivutkalns aDNA and the relatively late TMRCA of "Baltic" subclades. I'm not sure what kind of influence the Barrows with Stone Circles population had, but it must have been quite successful if they were the progenitors of N-L1025 in the Baltic.

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