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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    If he is indeed FGC13372+, then hes is not L1025* but rather L1025>M2783>Z16975, thus a member of one of the major clades under M2783 (FGC13372 is an equivalent of Z16975). I suspect his negative result for M2782 is a mistake. For example, many no-calls from SNP packs are wrongly reported as negative results on the projects' SNP pages.
    Thanks for sorting it out, and Z1675 is kind of frequent/considered East Prussian.

  2. #102
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    Aren't already N-L1025* and N-Y4706 also mostly Baltic (not just N-M2783+) ???

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Aren't already N-L1025* and N-Y4706 also mostly Baltic (not just N-M2783+) ???
    Finnish and Scandinavian, though would be unsurprising if it turns up in Estonia or some ex-Livonian villages in Northwestern Latvia.

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L1025/

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  5. #104
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    So apparently most of this L1025 is in fact M2783, but people have not tested any further downstream than L1025 ???:

    N1c haplogroup tree (dates according to YFull: formation time / TMRCA):



    Map 1 (clade L708):



    Map 2 (clade L1026):



    Map 3 (clade L1034):



    Map 4 (clade VL29):



    Map 5 (clade L1022):



    Map 6 (clade L550 - some of them can be lower in the tree but haven't tested downstream):



    Map 7 (clade L1025 - some of them can be M2783 or Y4706 but haven't tested downstream):



    Map 8 (clade Y4706):



    Here typically Baltic clades start (branch M2783):

    Map 9 (clade CTS8173):



    Map 10 (clade BY158):



    Map 11 (clade Z16975):



    Map 12 (clade L551):



    Source of maps:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/n-1c-1/dna-results

    Tree based on:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-TAT/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-12-2016 at 08:27 PM. Reason: info about dates of formation time / TMRCA added

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  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So apparently most of this L1025 is in fact M2783, but people have not tested any further downstream than L1025 ???:
    In the case of Latvia, Lithuania and more southern regions that's what I'd expect.

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  9. #106
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    I would be surprised to find even one already tested modern Balt that is L1025, but not M2783. (just because if there is such folk, their numbers are too small to already be tested).

    That is why I was so surprised to see that guy from Prussian project who I assumed (wrongly, as per few posts above) to be M2783-.

    p.s.
    Latvians so far are under so called West Baltic CTS8173+ (under M2783+), with few exceptions from Latgale.
    East Prussians are under so called Central Baltic Z16975+ (under M2783+).
    Lithuanians are under many subclades of M2783+.

    They should switch descriptor for Latvians and East Prussians We should be Central Baltic. They should be West Baltic.
    Last edited by parastais; 03-12-2016 at 09:31 PM.

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  11. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    I would be surprised to find even one already tested modern Balt that is L1025, but not M2783.
    Two Polish kits (N9209 and 172478) have tested Y4706+ .

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  13. #108
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    Checked further.

    Estonians have only 4 samples so far on ftdna project.
    1) 1 "West Baltic" - 90%+ of N Latvians are under L1025, M2783 -> West Baltic.
    2) 2 L1022 - called West Chudes in N tree
    3) 1 Z1941 - called Karelian in N tree

    Pskov has only 3 samples - Karelian, West Chudes and one Grand Lithuanian subclade of M2783.
    Belarus has I think so called Grand Lithuanian clades.
    Finland and Sweden has Y4706+ and L550+, but lack M2783*.

    Wherever M2783+ arrived from into Balts, it is no more there.

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  15. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Checked further.

    Estonians have only 4 samples so far on ftdna project.
    1) 1 "West Baltic" - 90%+ of N Latvians are under L1025, M2783 -> West Baltic.
    2) 2 L1022 - called West Chudes in N tree
    3) 1 Z1941 - called Karelian in N tree

    Pskov has only 3 samples - Karelian, West Chudes and one Grand Lithuanian subclade of M2783.
    Belarus has I think so called Grand Lithuanian clades.
    Finland and Sweden has Y4706+ and L550+, but lack M2783*.

    Wherever M2783+ arrived from into Balts, it is no more there.
    It's possible that the mutation M2783 happened in the Baltic population and represents founder effect of some small L1025 introgression.

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  17. #110
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    I remember reading an old discussion in which two Finnish members were pointing to the fact that all Slavic populations carry N1c. Some Slavic populations have it more than other. Back then little was known which branches of N1c different Slavic populations had. If Slavs including (Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats and other) have markers from the Baltic branch, then Slavs may well had these markers from the beginning in the proto-Slavic population.

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