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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It seems to me that there is nothing in the structure and age of the N1c-L1025 clade that would suggest your above interpretation, but since this has been already discussed in detail elsewhere, I can only hope that some aDNA data will help us solve this question very soon.
    Finnish linguist and hobby genetecist, known as Jaska on various forums, posited that theory a while back. Maybe things have changed since then, I don't know?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Finnish linguist and hobby genetecist, known as Jaska on various forums, posited that theory a while back. Maybe things have changed since then, I don't know?
    Could you please give me a link to his posts or articles on this very subject?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The Baltic N1c branch looks pre-Uralic, and might actually represent an Indo-European migration, which carried both R1a and N1c to the Baltic.
    Big Y test results should be very helpful in structuring and dating the branches, and therefore the spread, of the N haplotree. We can then attempt to correlate those dates with other events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    No, it was exactly the other way around. I was surprised that you seemed to interpret the well-balanced description provided by wikipedia in such a simplistic way.
    I wasn't interpreting Wikipedia. I don't use Wikipedia as a source. But I can't keep citing myself all the time. So I lazily pushed people towards the easy online source for some idea of what I'm talking about, just to get the ball rolling. People are free to argue about it of course.

    You may not have noticed it, but I have already posted here on this subject and my view on the PCW=Proto-Uralic hypothesis is very critical, so I wasn't really surprised that this is not considered a consensus view any more.
    No. Sorry I hadn't noticed. But certainly there are chronological issues to clear up.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-14-2013 at 01:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Could you please give me a link to his posts or articles on this very subject?
    PM on the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Could you please give me a link to his posts or articles on this very subject?
    I have found an online article by J. H. which was updated in January 2012, so I think it may represent his latest thinking.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

    ..it seems that the first split of the haplogroup N1c1 occurred somewhere between the Ural Mountains and the Altai–Sayan Mountains – around the southern part of West Siberia. The eastern group is mainly restricted to Asia, while the western group is mainly restricted to Europe... The first split [in Europe] seems to have occurred between the western Central European group, and the eastern East European group. This split probably occurred somewhere near the Upper Volga basin or in any case east of Baltia.
    The spread of Comb Ceramics Culture to the Fenno-Baltia about 6 000 years ago was accompanied by many changes in the material culture and dwellings, which hints to the considerable movement of people. Remarkably, the two westernmost Comb Ceramic areas seem to correlate rather well with the division of the European N1c1: the Comb-Pit Ware (or Typical Combed Ware, 1a) was present in Baltia, Finland and Kare-lia, while the Pit-Comb Ware (1b) was present in Karelia and Northwest Russia up to the Northern Dvina .. and in the Upper Volga area, from Lake Peipus in the west to the Volga–Kama fork in the east and Upper Dnieper in the south.

    The Balto-Polish group can be derived from the southwestern most part of the Comb-Pit Ware area, while the Scandinavian group can be derived from the Scandinavian Pitted Ware (4) area; this ceramic style is a bit younger and seem to have possibly received influence from the Comb-Pit Ware of Baltia or Finland. Perhaps it will be found also some Finnish subgroup deriving from the Central European group. The true Rurikids (members of noble Russian families) belong to the Scandinavian group, and their closest relatives are found in the coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns. Their brother group (clan of Tawast–Räihä) is found among the Western Finns...

    It must be noted that there are no traces of any Uralic language in Northeast Poland, and also the new datings for the expansion of Proto-Uralic (ca. 2000 BC) are about two millennia too late to be connected to the spread of the Comb-Pit Ware. Therefore we must exclude the westernmost area, the Comb-Pit Ware (1a) from the area of the Uralic languages, and even in the Pit-Comb Ware area (1b) the Uralic languages seem to be later newcomers: the original area of Proto-Uralic is on the linguistic basis located on the northern side of the Volga bend and Lower Kama – just in the gap between the central and eastern area of the Comb Ceram-ics (Häkkinen, Jaakko 2009: Kantauralin ajoitus ja paikannus: perustelut puntarissa.)

    Only at a later stage can we with slightly greater assurance connect the westernmost Uralic languages to the Finlandian and Ladogan groups: Proto-Finnic to the former, if it is found in Estonia, and Proto-Saami perhaps to certain subgroups of the latter.

    It must be emphasized that there is no more reason to connect the Comb Ceramic Culture to the spread of the Uralic languages, but it still can be connected to the spread of N1c1 to the Baltic Sea region. No earlier than one millennium later the Corded Ware Culture spread to Baltia, Southwest Finland and Southern Sweden, supposedly spreading the Northwest Indo-European dialect. Only after this wave the N1c1 men of the area (as well as those of any other haplogroup) could have begun to speak an Indo-European language. Yet it is possible that the North European group of N1c1 participated also in the Corded Ware expansion from Poland to the more northern areas, even though the main bulk of the Corded Ware men seem to have been R1a1.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-14-2013 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Fixing typo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Finnish linguist and hobby geneticist, known as Jaska on various forums, posited that theory a while back.
    I do not recall Jaska ever positing the theory that N1c might represent an Indo-European migration to the Baltic before Uralic. I have papers by him going back to 2009, which all suggest that the early expansion of N1 from southern Siberia to north-eastern Europe may be connected with a Pre-Proto-Uralic expansion. He is using the prefix "Pre-" here as linguists do, to indicate a language which developed into Proto-Uralic, not a completely unrelated language which happened to precede Proto-Uralic in the territory.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-14-2013 at 05:58 PM.

  10. #18
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    L1025 (the South Baltic branch of N-L550) is not nearly as concentrated in the Baltic countries as some people may think. Take a look at this map of its spread. Its secondary concentrations near northeast Ukraine and the Carpathian mountains are noteworthy.

    Again: I look forward to what Big Y results will tell us.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 12-14-2013 at 04:45 PM.

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  12. #19
    Interesting. Baltic languages are said to have been spread much more west ( I have read of the Pomeranian and Lusatian Cultures corresponding to Baltic) which might explain why L1025 is more widespread the the extent of modern Baltic languages.

  13. #20
    And spread more east as well obviously.

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