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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It seems to me that there is nothing in the structure and age of the N1c-L1025 clade that would suggest your above interpretation, but since this has been already discussed in detail elsewhere.
    Hello Michal, I'm new here.
    Could you tell me where I can find more on this subject?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Hello Michal, I'm new here.
    Welcome to the forum!


    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Could you tell me where I can find more on this subject?
    You can start with the discussion that was once held on the Molgen forum:
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=844&start=40

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Could you tell me where I can find more on this subject?
    I expect Big Y results to bring us much more information. At least 17 men in the N-L1025 clade have ordered that test.

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I expect Big Y results to bring us much more information. At least 17 men in the N-L1025 clade have ordered that test.
    If it turns out N in the South Baltic, or at least a good portion of it, dates to the Mesolithic what language was most likely spoken by them ? Some sort of brother to Uralic or a Paleo European languages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    At least 17 men in the N-L1025 clade have ordered that test.
    Is there any place where I can find a list of those N1c-L1025 people who ordered Big Y?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Is there any place where I can find a list of those N1c-L1025 people who ordered Big Y?
    Take a look at this Molgen post and the several that follow. For your convenience, here is a list of N-L1025 kits and surnames that are known to have ordered the Big Y:

    174607 Lamborn
    113355 Tawast
    262236 Keskitalo
    102351 Stjerna
    N11423 Sakowicz
    175141 Dunkel
    B2967 Czora
    149750 Krenek
    N81921 Berkhout
    N58382 Dargiel
    133144 Chartorisky, L551+
    N101084 Radville
    N20613 Ehlert
    N6569 Leonard
    119958 Moszynski, L591+
    145475 Melnyk
    156758 Stankevičius, L591+

    Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone in the N-L1027 subclade who ordered the Big Y.

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  9. #27
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    Balts have south Baltic branch of N1c1 , which is common among Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians. It also found among Belarusians, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles. The highest frequency of south Baltic branch in Slavic populations is among Belarusians if memory serves me correctly. There is north-south gradient of N1c1 in Belarus. Eastern Ukraine was empty in the last 1000 years populated by Russians, Ukrainians and to lesser extent by Belarusian in the last 200 years . This can explain N1c1 presence in eastern Ukraine.

    The clade is absent among Finno-Ugric speakers in significant amounts except for Estonians, who are heavily mixed with Balts and Slavs as per y-chromosome and genome-wide studies.

    There are few Finnic typonyms and hydronyms in Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Poland. There were few craniums found in Lithuania exhibiting mongoloid features which were attributed to Uralic speakers by anthropologists in the past. Most of them were found close to the border with Latvia.

    The haplogroup N1c1 originated in south Siberia and by the time the carriers of N1c1 reached eastern Europe they absorbed genes of various populations switching languages along the way. South Baltic clade of N1c1 isn't very old.

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    In the past the spread of Comb ceramic people was correlated with early Uralic languages. A more recent view is that the Comb ceramic people may had spoken a Paleo-European language. If that the case then it may explain genetic similarities between north-eastern Slavs, Balts and Baltic Finns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał
    The exact origin of that Baltic N1c is a very controversial issue, so I would recommend discussing this in other threads (like this one), even though I strongly suspect that this is associated with a relatively recent (and sex-specific) Nordic/Scandinavian ancestry.
    Baltic N1c is much older than the Viking Age, so I don't think that it is of Scandinavian origin:

    N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic (especially East Slavic) countries
    N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia

    N-L550 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp (according to YFull estimate, which can be 10-20% too young)
    N-L1025 formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp (according to YFull estimate, which can be 10-20% too young)

    N1c was found in 2 burials of Zhizhitskaya culture near Serteya (Smolensk Oblast - see the map below), dated to ca. 2500 BC.

    Do we know if that N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture was under N-L550 or under N-L1025 ???

    Another N1c was found in "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, located on the banks of Lake Zhizhitskoye:



    That younger N1c comes from Dnieper-Dvina culture, associated with East Balts (ancestors of Lithuanians & Latvians):

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepr-Dwina-Kultur

    Iron Age homeland of East Balts were forest cultures of North-West Russia characterised by hillforts and long barrows.

    That network of hillfort-building cultures of the forest zone, included primarily the following cultures:

    - Brushed pottery culture
    - Stroked-pottery culture
    - Dnieper-Dvina culture
    - Yukhnov culture
    - Upper Oka culture

    In another thread Volat also mentioned:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...1110#post71110

    Quote Originally Posted by Volat
    Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD
    Moshinskaya culture 4AD-6AD related to Dniepr-Dvina culture
    Upper-Oka culture of Iron age related to dniepr-Dvina culture
    Milograd culture 7BC-1AD
    Yukhnovskaya culture 5BC-2BC
    Eastern lithuanian barrow culture 5AD-12AD
    Bantser archeological culture – 4AD-6AD
    Stone barrow culture 4AD-13AD
    Possibly Kolichinsk (5AD-7AD)
    If that N1c from Dnieper-Dvina culture was of the same type as in modern Balts, we can exclude Scandinavian origin.

    We have two samples of Y-DNA from Dnieper-Dvina culture, from the area of Lake Zhizhitskoye (see Chekunova 2014*):

    Sample A4 - Anashkino hillfort - dated to ca. 800-400 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    The same Y-DNA haplogroups which are today found among Latvians and Lithuanians in roughly equal proportion.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *Chekunova (2014), "The first results of genetic typing of local population and ancient humans in Upper Dvina region", in Mazurkevich, Polkovnikova and Dolbunova, "Archaeology of lake settlement IV-II mill. BC", pp. 290-294:

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed

    Also Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture" (info on sites with aDNA from Chekunova - info on sites of Zhizhitskaya culture is on page 185, while on sites of Dnieper-Dvina culture on page 187):

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Baltic N1c is much older than the Viking Age, so I don't think that it is of Scandinavian origin:

    N1c1a1a1a (L550): found throughout the Baltic and North Slavic (especially East Slavic) countries
    N1c1a1a1a1 (L1025): found especially in Balto-Slavic countries, with a peak in Lithuania and Latvia
    Neither N1c-L550 nor N1c-L1025 are specifically associated with the Balts (or Balto-Slavs). In fact, it is only one of the two major sublcades under L1025 (ie. M2783) that is strongly (and quite specifically!) associated with the Baltic population. Importantly, the only sister clade of M2783 (ie. Y4706) is absent among the Balts while being found in Sweden and Finland. Additionally, all five sister clades of L1025 (under L550) are found in Fennoscandia (mostly among the Swedes and Finns). One of those L550 subclades (known as Y4343 or Y4348) is of special importance, as despite being found among the Swedes and Finns, it also includes a so-called Varangian subclade that seems to be strongly associated with the Early Russian Rurikid dynasty of foreign (Varangian/Viking) origin.

    All above suggests that both L550 and and its subclade L1025 are of non-Baltic (and non-Balto-Slavic) origin. Instead, the above data indicate that these clades originated and initially expanded in Fennoscandia, although two of the multiple descending lineages were very successful either among the early Eastern Slavs (the Varengian/Viking subclade under Y4343) or among the SE Baltic people, including Latvians, Lithuanians and Prussians (clade M2783).

    If L550 and L1025 were born among the Balts or Balto-Slavs, it would be extremely difficult to explain why only two selected sublineages seem to be associated with the Balts/Balto-Slavs (and at least one of them is strongly suspected of being of Norse Viking origin), while all the remaining independent sublineages seem to originate from Sweden/Finland.

    As for the TMRCA ages, I don't think clade M2783 is too old to be associated with the Norse Viking ancestry. For example, the Scottish subclade R1a-YP273 under R1a-CTS4179 (in the Scandinavian branch Z284) with TMRCA of 3100 ybp (according to YFull) seems to be significantly older than N1c-M2783 (2600 ybp), yet its Norse-Viking origin seems to be quite commonly accepted. One needs to remember that the migrations of the Norse Vikings were frequently undertaken by very large clans, especially when a military conquest was involved, and each such clan needed at least a couple of centuries for its population to sufficiently grow in numbers before expanding/migrating into foreign territories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Do we know if that N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture was under N-L550 or under N-L1025 ???
    I doubt it was any subclade under L550. Most likely, it was one of the N1c(xL550) species that are common in North-Eastern Europe (and are quite strongly associated with the Finno-Ugric origin).
    Last edited by Michał; 11-13-2015 at 03:18 PM.

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