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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    So then what do you think caused the Mezhovskaya shift in modern Uralics?

    Also if the Estonian article is correct we can expect N1c from 8-5th century BCE in Tarand graves. This is not too far from North Lithuania however 1000 years older. They will likely represent the actuall proto-Finnics.
    That Mezhovskaya shift was possibly not real, it vanished when using references from the newest papers. Khantys for example now look like a mix of ShamankaEN (BHG) and something that may have been a bit like Corded Ware but more ANE since regular Sintashta and Baltic CWC were 0 in this fit like Mezhovskaya.

    "distance%=9.7704"

    Khanty

    ShamankaEN,46
    West_Siberia_N,33
    Sintashta_MLBA_o3,11
    Barcin_N,10

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  3. #502
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    False thinking. Geographical center of Lithuanian Republic is 59 km away from Kaunas. Not of Lithuania.

  4. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    @Ebizur
    It does not make much sense to compare N-Y6058 with N-Y23747, as N-Y6058 is much more downstream and between N-Y6058 and N-F1419 there are many nodes and subclades that are mostly found in Russia and clearly more western compared to N-Y23747. N-Y23747 is on the same level with N-F1419 (South Siberian Khakass, Andra Pradesh, Bashkortostan, Volga Ural) and TMRCA of F1419, 10800 years, is clearly older that TMRCA of Y23747, 6600 years.
    How does it not make sense?

    The point is that N-Y23747 represents a branch of N-Tat (what is more, a basal one) that has been found only in eastern Asia (Japan, the Upper Amur, and North China) and whose TMRCA is most likely greater than the TMRCA of N-L1026, this latter clade subsuming the bulk of extant members of N-Tat and having some branches found in eastern Asia and other branches found in Europe. (However, YFull's 95% CIs for the two clades do overlap just a bit: N-Y23747 TMRCA 6,600 [95% CI 5,400 <-> 7,800] ybp, N-L1026 TMRCA 4,700 [95% CI 4,000 <-> 5,500] ybp. I'm not claiming that the finding of N-Y23747 only in eastern Asia so far is incontrovertibly strong evidence for an origin of N-Tat in eastern Asia, only that it is one piece of evidence that should be interpreted to support the eastern Asian origin hypothesis.)

    In support of the European origin hypothesis, one might mention N-Y9022, all current representatives of which on YFull have origins in the Volga-Ural region: Bashkortostan, Komi Republic, Tatarstan, Mordovia, Penza Oblast. However, the TMRCA of N-Y9022 is estimated to be 3,900 [95% CI 3,100 <-> 4,700] ybp, indicating that it is significantly younger than eastern Asian N-Y23747 at least on the basis of these members from the Volga-Ural region. Furthermore, data from FTDNA suggest that at least one branch of N-Y9022 has been present in southern Siberia (Novokuznetsk and Tobolsk) since the 17th century CE at the latest. I suppose higher-resolution data should clarify eventually whether members of this clade have migrated from the Volga-Ural region to southern Siberia during the eastward expansion of the Russian Empire or whether they have migrated from southern Siberia to eastern Europe in some earlier era; of course, they could have done both (i.e. migrated from southern Siberia to eastern Europe, with some descendants later migrating back to southern Siberia).

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  6. #504
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    N-Y23747 and N-F1419 are both on the same level of the tree.

    N-Y23747 has a TMRCA of 6600ybp and is only found in East Asia.

    N-F1419 has a TMRCA of 10800ybp, its two son branches are...

    N-Y24317 with a TMRCA of 10800ybp found in an Indian and two South Siberians on Yfull it was also found in the Ust-Ida BHG and Okunevo aDNA samples.

    N-L708 with a TMRCA of 7500ybp has its greatest diversity around the Urals according to Yfull but it is found across Eurasia.

    I would argue this supports a Siberian origin for N-Tat however Northern China isnt out of the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    N-F1419 has a TMRCA of 10800ybp, its two son branches are...

    N-Y24317 with a TMRCA of 10800ybp found in an Indian and two South Siberians on Yfull it was also found in the Ust-Ida BHG and Okunevo aDNA samples.
    The Indian member has an Islamic name and appears to be a Hyderabad or Andhra Muslim. Who knows where his patrilineal ancestor might have lived even five hundred years ago?

    In any case, his TMRCA with two Khakassians on YFull is estimated to be approximately the same as the TMRCA of the parent clade, N-F1419. This suggests that the N-Y24317 node may be phylogenetically quite insignificant; the Indian and the Khakassians may share as few as four SNPs in common vis-à-vis members of N-L708.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    N-L708 with a TMRCA of 7500ybp has its greatest diversity around the Urals according to Yfull but it is found across Eurasia.
    One branch from the N-L708 node is the N-Y9022 clade (TMRCA 3,900 [95% CI 3,100 <-> 4,700] ybp on the basis of some members from the Volga-Ural region of Russia) that I have mentioned in my previous comment in this thread. The other branch is N-M2126 (TMRCA 6,400 [95% CI 5,500 <-> 7,400] ybp).

    N-M2126 has two primary subclades: N-M2019 (TMRCA 3,800 [95% CI 3,000 <-> 4,600] ybp) and N-L1026 (TMRCA 4,700 [95% CI 4,000 <-> 5,500] ybp). N-M2019 has been found mainly among Turkic peoples (including a certain subclade, N-M1993, whose TMRCA is estimated to be 1,600 [95% CI 1,050 <-> 2,200] ybp, that is known for its high frequency in Yakutia), but it also has been found in some individuals on the western periphery of the Turkic world, e.g. Hungary, Croatia. There is also an interesting basal N-M2019* from Estonia.

    N-L1026 subsumes N-Y16323 (TMRCA 3,200 [95% CI 2,500 <-> 4,000] ybp), N-Y28526 (TMRCA 1,700 [95% CI 1,100 <-> 2,400] ybp calculated on the basis of the Y-DNA of only three members), N-VL29 (TMRCA 3,700 [95% CI 3,100 <-> 4,400] ybp), N-Y13850 (TMRCA 4,200 [95% CI 3,500 <-> 5,100] ybp), N-Z1934 (TMRCA 4,400 [95% CI 3,600 <-> 5,200] ybp), and N-B479 (TMRCA 4,217 [95% CI 3,185 <-> 5,174] ybp according to Ilumäe et al. 2016, whose TMRCA estimates tend to be a bit greater/older than those of YFull).

    As for the geographical distributions of these subclades of N-L1026, N-Z1934 appears to be distinctly Finnic. N-Y13850 looks like it might have been originally Ugric, but it also seems to be quite common among northwestern Turkic peoples. N-VL29 appears to have been originally Finnic, but some branches have prospered among Scandinavians, Balts, and Slavs. N-Y16323 has one branch, N-B202, among Northeast Siberians (Koryak, Chukchi, Eskimo) and another branch, N-F4205, among Turko-Mongols. N-Y28526 is rare and the extent of its distribution is not clear yet, but it has been found in European Russia, including the Komi Republic. N-B479 has been found among the Nanais of southeastern Siberia.

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  10. #506
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    I have never promoted the European origin for yDNA N, and the arguments to support that theory have never been very strong.

    However, the arguments for a Siberian origin are many:
    Ust Ishim is K2a
    K2a and K2b share the same node and both Q and N are frequent in northern Eurasia.

    According to Chinese researchers themselves N is older in Siberia/Altai than in China, even without the western N-P189.2 branch.
    N-M231 mainly Han and Mongol 9.8 kya, linearly calibrated 15.8 kya
    N1-F2130 mainly Han and Mongol 8.4 kya, linearly calibrated 13.5 kya
    N2-F2930 Mainly Han 6.7 kya, linearly calibrated 10.8 kya.
    (http://arxiv.org/abs/1504.06463)

    The Balcanic line, derived from the oldest split, has been detected in one Iron Age burial from Hungary and possibly in Iron Age Altai but, to my knowledge, not in Chinese Neolithic.

    In the recent paper on ancient Southeast Asian DNA, southeast Asian hunters were C and D, southeast Asian farmers were O and the first N haplos appeared in the metal age.

    In any case, the ancient yDNA will hopefully resolve this issue in the future. I will modify my ideas accordingly.

    On a more general note, I am however against the idea that a yline must start from one end of its distribution range and migrate to the other end. I think that it is more probable that the centre of expansion is in the middle and there are repeated pulses of expansion from there to the surroundings. Of course, during the Ice Age there may have been several refuges for different N branches so that they need not have expanded from the same place.

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    Ling-Xiang Wang, Yan Lu, Chao Zhang, et al. (2018) have found a member of N1a1a3-F4065/B496 in Shigatse, Tibet. This is the basal branch of N1a1a-M178 that heretofore has been found in three individuals in Japan, one Oroqen in the upper Amur River basin, and one individual in Hebei Province of China.

    cf. Wang, LX., Lu, Y., Zhang, C., et al., "Reconstruction of Y-chromosome phylogeny reveals two neolithic expansions of Tibeto-Burman populations." Mol Genet Genomics (2018). https://doi.org/10.1007/s00438-018-1461-2
    Last edited by Ebizur; 06-24-2018 at 02:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    Ling-Xiang Wang, Yan Lu, Chao Zhang, et al. (2018) have found a member of N1a1a3-F4065/B496 in Shigatse, Tibet. This is the basal branch of N1a1a-M178 that heretofore has been found in three individuals in Japan, one Oroqen in the upper Amur River basin, and one individual in Hebei Province of China.
    N-Y23747

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    There was also a person from Korea in one of the FTDNA N projects whose Genographic test showed him to be F4065, but no BigY test planned for him as of now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroderTuck View Post
    There was also a person from Korea in one of the FTDNA N projects whose Genographic test showed him to be F4065, but no BigY test planned for him as of now.
    Can you give me a link or any more detailed information about this Korean case?

    The only instance of N-F4065 in an FTDNA project of which I am aware is N114445 Terasawa Seikuro Watanabe,b.Middle19th C,Kanai Sado Japan Japan N-F4065 in the N North Eurasian Y-DNA Project, who also appears as N114445 Terasawa Japan N-F4065 [N1a1a3 (旧N1c1a) - M231+ L735+ L729+ Tat+ M178+ F4063+] in the Japan DNA Project. According to his entry in the N North Eurasian Y-DNA Project, his ancestor was born in Kanai, Sado in the mid-19th century CE. Kanai (金井町 Kanai-machi "Goldwell Town") was a landlocked town located in the very center of the island of Sado. Kanai was merged with all other municipalities located on Sado Island in the Sea of Japan to form 佐渡市 Sado-shi ("Sado City") on March 1, 2004. In fact, Kanai-machi did not exist as such in the mid-19th century; Kanai was created as a municipality on November 3, 1954 through the merger of Kanazawa Village (金沢村 Kanazawa-mura "Goldbrook/Goldmarsh Village") and most of Yoshii Village (吉井村 Yosiwi-mura > Yoshii-mura "Goodwell Village"). I presume that this Mr. Terasawa has intended to indicate that his ancestor (Mr. Watanabe) is recorded to have been born in the mid-19th century somewhere within the area in the interior of Sado Island that would eventually become Kanai Town. As for the change of surname, that is not too unusual for a Japanese lineage; on average, something like five percent of Japanese men take their wife's surname upon marriage.
    Last edited by Ebizur; 06-25-2018 at 11:57 AM.

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