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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I favor an entry point from Scandinavia, especially if we are assuming the first N-L1025 rich Balts were from Lithuania and not Latvia. Based on Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res: DA171 and the Kivutkalns samples.

    Unfortunately there are still a lot of questions I don't think can be answered yet. Like what happened to all the N-L550 in Estonia? The simplest explanation would be that it was replaced during the transition from early-Tarands to typical-Tarands, or with the transition to cremation burials under level ground. Perhaps with new migrants (rich in N-L1022 subclades) from the East. However, there are three medieval Estonian samples with N, all apparently N-L550*. I guess these are dead branches?

    Also, if early-Tarands are the supposed progenitors of Finnic, you have a strange scenario where their main lineage (N-L550), is now more common among IE speakers than Finnics themselves.
    Tons of different L550 branches in Viking age Saaremaa (Yfull). Which gives support to L550 clan being maritime island seafarers.
    They definately were Finnics at least at some point, maybe assimilated into Norse later.
    Last edited by parastais; 06-13-2021 at 08:54 PM.

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  3. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I favor an entry point from Scandinavia, especially if we are assuming the first N-L1025 rich Balts were from Lithuania and not Latvia.
    Could you kindly eloborate, for instance in which way an entry point in Scandinavia is related to the first N-L1025 rich Balts in Lithuania?

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    L550 from Viking Age:
    VK419 - Norway
    VK481 - Saaremaa
    VK399 - Sweden
    VK533 - Sweden
    VK406 - Sweden
    VK505 - Saaremaa
    VK512 - Saaremaa
    VK489 - Saaremaa
    VK508 - Saaremaa
    VK550 - Saaremaa (this one L1025, but the FennoScandian line).

    Interesting those Saaremaa ones had Baltic Finnic autosomals or mostly Germanic/Norse?

    Edit: no L1022 in Viking Age Saaremaa samples. At least missed them from L1022 Yfull.
    Last edited by parastais; 06-13-2021 at 09:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Tons of different L550 branches in Viking age Saaremaa (Yfull). Which gives support to L550 clan being maritime island seafarers.
    They definately were Finnics at least at some point, maybe assimilated into Norse later.
    The Salme ship burials are conclusively from Scandinavia, specifically Sweden. That's not only based on grave goods, but also genetic and isotope analysis. Too bad Margaryan et al. 2020 is now under a paywall at Nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Could you kindly eloborate, for instance in which way an entry point in Scandinavia is related to the first N-L1025 rich Balts in Lithuania?
    Modern N-L550 subclade diversity peaks in Central Sweden, despite the frequency being about the same in Western Finland and significantly higher (when including L1025) in Balts. N-L550 originally came from Estonia with early-Tarands, potentially even formed on the Volga. However, that doesn't mean the MRCA of all modern N-L550 subclades lived in Estonia.

    If we assume N-L550 was represented in early-Tarands across the Baltic, there were N-L550 rich groups in SW Finland, NE Courland and Central Sweden. No Tarands have been found in Latvia (besides NE Courland) or Lithuania, nor has N-L550 been found in Kivutkalns, making a direct migration from Estonia during the EIA unlikely. When the diversity of subclades in Sweden is taken into account, as well as the age of the first N sample in the Baltic, I think N-L1025 entered Lithuania with Goths or related Germanic speakers from Svealand.

    Modern Estonian N-L550 is either downstream from "Scandinavian" or "Latvian/Lithuanian" branches. The MA samples (and the majority of IA samples) belong to seemingly extinct branches at the L550* level. I'm not sure if that is true for Finland as well.
    Last edited by Zelto; 06-13-2021 at 09:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    L550 from Viking Age:
    VK419 - Norway
    VK481 - Saaremaa
    VK399 - Sweden
    VK533 - Sweden
    VK406 - Sweden
    VK505 - Saaremaa
    VK512 - Saaremaa
    VK489 - Saaremaa
    VK508 - Saaremaa
    VK550 - Saaremaa (this one L1025, but the FennoScandian line).

    Interesting those Saaremaa ones had Baltic Finnic autosomals or mostly Germanic/Norse?

    Edit: no L1022 in Viking Age Saaremaa samples. At least missed them from L1022 Yfull.
    All of the Saaremaa samples are from the Salme ship burials. To my knowledge they all look Germanic/Norse. Some may have been slightly drifted towards Finnics, but I think that was typical of the Malaren region during the IA-Viking Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    When the diversity of subclades in Sweden is taken into account, as well as the age of the first N sample in the Baltic, I think N-L1025 entered Lithuania with Goths or related Germanic speakers from Svealand.
    While for instance Darsgärde might indeed be one of the entry points of paternal N in Sweden, I'd guess any of the areas later connected to future East Germanic speakers in the Baltic coast might do. However, I personally assume that the lineage entered Baltic circles EDIT in a big way only after something, which took place in the areas next to Danube, like Hunnic invasion. Possibly the entry point was the return of a mixed bag of both West Uralic speaking and Balto-Slavic mercenaries into East Baltic, as the people in Pskov type of Long Barrows and East Baltic kurgans are apparently not (just?) Germanic speakers themselves.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 06-14-2021 at 06:32 AM. Reason: EDIT "in a big way"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    All of the Saaremaa samples are from the Salme ship burials. To my knowledge they all look Germanic/Norse. Some may have been slightly drifted towards Finnics, but I think that was typical of the Malaren region during the IA-Viking Age.
    Do you remember what was the proportion of N is those burials? And where they autosomally different from other samples (R1b, I1) there?

    For L-1025 to arrive with Goths or Scandinavians it would need to come from spot with 80-100% of N (if we exclude chance), maybe Malaren (and/or nearby islands) early centuries BCE was such a spot. But Goths definately were not such people, we know from Kowalewko, of many samples there was just one (and Baltic admixed) N late and deep in Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    While for instance Darsgärde might indeed be one of the entry points of paternal N in Sweden, I'd guess any of the areas later connected to future East Germanic speakers in the Baltic coast might do. However, I personally assume that the lineage entered Baltic circles only after something, which took place in the areas next to Danube, like Hunnic invasion. Possibly the entry point was the return of a mixed bag of both West Uralic speaking and Balto-Slavic mercenaries into East Baltic, as the people in Pskov type of Long Barrows and East Baltic kurgans are apparently not (just?) Germanic speakers themselves.
    No, we got L1025 in North Lithuanian Barrows Culture 3rd AD (Barrows with Stone Circles).

    Danube likely would bring a mix of different haplos, including Slavic ones. And they might "on their way" take with them some already Baltic (post Stone Circles) N, promoting its further spread in the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    No, we got L1025 in North Lithuanian Barrows Culture 3rd AD (Barrows with Stone Circles).

    Danube likely would bring a mix of different haplos, including Slavic ones. And they might "on their way" take with them some already Baltic (post Stone Circles) N, promoting its further spread in the region.
    Maybe you did, especially if North Lithuanian Barrows culture was influenced by East Germanic speakers. However, a fancy burial habit as such is probably not enough to explain the success of N-L1025 in Baltic states, I'd guess.

    That being said, there are other possibilties too, such as "South of Long Barrow Culture territory, in the upper reaches of the Dnieper and the Western Dvina/Daugava basin, the very similar Tushemlya-Bantserovshchina Culture appeared at the same time (Lopatin, Furas'ev 1995; Lopatin 2006; Shchukin et al.2006, pp.55-60)."

    https://www.academia.edu/1930524/M_K...2007_p_238_253

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    One thing related to tarands, again. If I recall it right, even inside Long Barrows there are wooden structures which might be based on House of Dead-tradition. We may have missed most of Houses of Death as they were possibly typically made of wood, just like this later Karelian one:

    https://www.vastavalo.net/kalmismaa-...sa-493256.html

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