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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Well, you brought up China not me.



    This is a very odd argument to make. L708 and and P43 are far older than the Uralic language family and their common ancestor in China or wherever is irrelevant. I don't see it relevant for the topic at hand what role P43 played in the dispersal of Uralic languages.



    Fatyanovo-Balanovo were R1a-Z93 and similar to Sintashta. They were more likely to be Indo-Iranian than anything linked with Balto-Slavic. I don't have all the answers for everything as the ancient DNA available is very limited. However, the number of carriers of downstream subclades under L1025 that speak Baltic and Slavic is not a significant statistic for VL29 as a whole just like the number of Z93 in India is not suggestive of Indo-Iranians originating there. Upstream subclades and especially those found in ancient DNA are the only thing that matters.
    Well, I think that it matters, that N1 created culture in China that currently is associated with Chinese people only and possibly spoke some language that was similar to Uralic and Samoyedic, before it was overtaken by y-dna O population from south. Besides, N1 seems to have populated all the regions in China, that are clasicaly considered origins of Chinese civilization. But yeah, I am forgetting, that there are people that shudder from the thougth that they share exactly the same N-tat, as Chukchi or Buryats, not to mention, that they are more related to slanted eyed Chinese(including y-dna O) - and not beautifully eyed Europen people of preferably Scandinavian origin. In other words - just pure racists.

    L708 and P43 did not cross paths until modern ages. P43 only recently reached Arctic Ocean, as for the most of the part, they were living in Southern Siberia(where they are extinct as of couple of hundred years). IMO, it is relevant, that despite their distant common ancestry languages that they are speaking are still regarded as belonging to the same linguistical tree, even if there were doubts of that in the past.

    Well, Sintashta really does not interest me in terms of modern Baltic(and Estonian) origins - Sintashta have R1a, that is not observed in Baltic people - in other words that is Iranic(that did not reach Iran, though). They might have N1a, but for the reasons of lacking Baltic R1a, it is just not that interesting. Besides Sintashta culture is located to the south from where Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture was located, so I feel that we are getting off the topic of how significant part of VL29 became Baltic speakers and that happened between 4000 years ago and no later than 3000 years ago, when ancestors of Latvians and Lithuanians can be started to be traced as something that already exist as a culture and somehow VL29 is about that age. So, if a region that VL29 populated, was Baltic speaking before, what are the chances, that significant part of VL29 did not start to speak in Baltic as well? Why it is so important that they are Uralic speakers, if most of N people are not even speaking Uralic. I mean out of ~ 120 million people(together with females) only 5 million are Uralic speakers. How it is important that another 5 million people are not Uralic speakers for thousands of years now? I just can't get around this. Is this another Finnish-centric racism issue, that comes from frail view on the world and is linked with self-identification, that is so important that it allows to dictate other people how they should identify? Just mindboggling...

    I forgot to add that there is also presence of R1a-M558 among Uralic speaking population in Fatyanovo-Balanovo region(~20% in Maris). Completely forgot about that, because we are just wasting our time in useless battle to prove, that VL-29 were not Baltic speakers. How about R1a-M558, that are now Uralic speakers? So, they can switch to Uralic, but VL29 just can't switch to Baltic?
    Last edited by arpatir; 07-22-2021 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    Well, Sintashta really does not interest me in terms of modern Baltic(and Estonian) origins - Sintashta have R1a, that is not observed in Baltic people - in other words that is Iranic(that did not reach Iran, though). They might have N1a, but for the reasons of lacking Baltic R1a, it is just not that interesting. Besides Sintashta culture is located to the south from where Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture was located
    Fatyanovo-Balanovo had Z93 just like Sintashta. There is nothing in particular about them which suggests a relationship to Balts. Balts likely originated much further southwest, maybe eastern Belarus. Someone else might know more about that. Balts(actually just distant relatives to Balts) seem to have migrated to Russia well after the TMRCA of VL29.

    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir
    so I feel that we are getting off the topic of how significant part of VL29 became Baltic speakers and that happened between 4000 years ago and no later than 3000 years ago, when ancestors of Latvians and Lithuanians can be started to be traced as something that already exist as a culture and somehow VL29 is about that age.
    The consensus seems to be that it happened between 2800 and 2500 years ago. Zelto thinks pre-L1025 jumped from Estonia to Sweden, and from Sweden to Lithuania based on modern(and ancient) diversity of L550. That may or may not be the case, but at least it has some quantity of evidence backing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir
    So, if a region that VL29 populated, was Baltic speaking before, what are the chances, that significant part of VL29 did not start to speak in Baltic as well? Why it is so important that they are Uralic speakers, if most of N people are not even speaking Uralic. I mean out of ~ 120 million people(together with females) only 5 million are Uralic speakers. How it is important that another 5 million people are not Uralic speakers for thousands of years now? I just can't get around this. Is this another Finnish-centric racism issue, that comes from frail view on the world and is linked with self-identification, that is so important that it allows to dictate other people how they should identify? Just mindboggling...
    You're trying to convince me that something like CTS3451 from Vologda(Finland too to some extent due to small-scale Meryan migrations) is Indo-European and Baltic and shifted to West Uralic. Sorry, but that is really mindboggling.

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  4. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    So, you canít.
    Of course he can't as there are no such articles.

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  6. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Fatyanovo-Balanovo had Z93 just like Sintashta. There is nothing in particular about them which suggests a relationship to Balts. Balts likely originated much further southwest, maybe eastern Belarus. Someone else might know more about that. Balts(actually just distant relatives to Balts) seem to have migrated to Russia well after the TMRCA of VL29.



    The consensus seems to be that it happened between 2800 and 2500 years ago. Zelto thinks pre-L1025 jumped from Estonia to Sweden, and from Sweden to Lithuania based on modern(and ancient) diversity of L550. That may or may not be the case, but at least it has some quantity of evidence backing it.



    You're trying to convince me that something like CTS3451 from Vologda(Finland too to some extent due to small-scale Meryan migrations) is Indo-European and Baltic and shifted to West Uralic. Sorry, but that is really mindboggling.
    Do not make claims, that are not in that paper about Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture. First it is nearly identical culturally to neighboring Baltic cultures to the west - and that is known from archeological evidence(not in paper, but I would assume, that anyone should know about that if they are not hearing about Fatyanovo-Balanovo for the first time). Secondly, Western part of Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture was not Z93 and that is something that anyone should know by just reading that paper.


    There are no preL1025 in Sweden and also Zelto does not claim that. My main issue with Zelto, was claim, that L1025 originated in Estonia, while there is no such evidence of that scale movement of people from Estonia and it contradicts known history of the region to fill Lithuania and Latvia with L1025 - absolutely zero evidence of that made up claim, but there is evidence of people moving to the north from Latvia and only arrogant or peple of low intellect can do such research, that will offend nonEstonians.
    As for origin of L550, Ytree does not claim that ancient L550 in Estonia to be L550*, but it has problems classifying to which clade it belongs, and it will take some time to classify it so I also thought, that he was too hasty in declaring Estonia as origin of L550. In other words, at this point we know abslolutelly nothing and Zelto was just messing his own head and heads of others, who regarded that information as proven. As a result, my opinion on that information was not really favorable and that is really nice but not precise thing to say what I am thinking what Zelto was trying to do and it is still not, even if you will repost that crap 100x times.

    At this point I am just leaving information to someone else, who will find it valuable and is able to process it. I am not trying to convince you of anything, as you are not able to comprehend anything - you might as well just stop buggering me, because I find it that you are basically just harassing me, just like @parastais started to do, regards of what I am writing here.

  7. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Of course he can't as there are no such articles.
    That is news for me that there does not exist hydronymy research in Finland. But then your level of knowledge is not something that can be regarded as achievement, so meh.
    Last edited by arpatir; 07-22-2021 at 06:33 PM.

  8. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    Do not make claims, that are not in that paper about Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture. First it is nearly identical culturally to neighboring Baltic cultures to the west - and that is known from archeological evidence(not in paper, but I would assume, that anyone should know about that if they are not hearing about Fatyanovo-Balanovo for the first time). Secondly, Western part of Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture was not Z93 and that is something that anyone should know by just reading that paper.
    Do not make claims, that are not in that paper about Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture. First it is nearly identical culturally to neighboring Baltic cultures to the west - and that is known from archeological evidence(not in paper, but I would assume, that anyone should know about that if they are not hearing about Fatyanovo-Balanovo for the first time). Secondly, Western part of Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture was not Z93 and that is something that anyone should know by just reading that paper.

    There are no preL1025 in Sweden and also Zelto does not claim that. My main issue with Zelto, was claim, that L1025 originated in Estonia, while there is no such evidence of that scale movement of people from Estonia and it contradicts known history of the region to fill Lithuania and Latvia with L1025 - absolutely zero evidence of that made up claim, but there is evidence of people moving to the north from Latvia and only arrogant or peple of low intellect can do such research, that will offend nonEstonians.
    As for origin of L550, Ytree does not claim that ancient L550 in Estonia to be L550*, but it has problems classifying to which clade it belongs, and it will take some time to classify it so I also thought, that he was too hasty in declaring Estonia as origin of L550. In other words, at this point we know abslolutelly nothing and Zelto was just messing his own head and heads of others, who regarded that information as proven. As a result, my opinion on that information was not really favorable and that is really nice but not precise thing to say what I am thinking what Zelto was trying to do and it is still not, even if you will repost that crap 100x times.

    At this point I am just leaving information to someone else, who will find it valuable and is able to process it. I am not trying to convince you of anything, as you are not able to comprehend anything - you might as well just stop buggering me, because I find it that you are basically just harassing me, just like @parastais started to do, regards of what I am writing here.
    This was already many times discussed here and please check this new paper which shows Western Fatyanovo with only Z93 so far

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/4/eabd6535

    There is also a thread here where we are discussing the Fatyanovo results if you want to read more about Fatyanovo.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....European-plain

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  10. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    You're trying to convince me that something like CTS3451 from Vologda(Finland too to some extent due to small-scale Meryan migrations) is Indo-European and Baltic and shifted to West Uralic.
    Kind of side note but I think it remains to be seen what was the scale of Meryanic related migrations into Finland, - and especially into areas nearby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Kind of side note but I think it remains to be seen what was the scale of Meryanic related migrations into Finland, - and especially into areas nearby.
    CTS3451 makes up 1/15 of male lineages in eastern Finland but 1/44 in Finland as a whole. It has it's peaks at the western Ladoga on FamilyTreeDNA projects where it may even be a 1/4 in some places. I understand you are not referring to CTS3451 though but rather something under Z1934. I'm not quite sold on that.

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  14. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    CTS3451 makes up 1/15 of male lineages in eastern Finland but 1/44 in Finland as a whole. It has it's peaks at the western Ladoga on FamilyTreeDNA projects where it may even be a 1/4 in some places. I understand you are not referring to CTS3451 though but rather something under Z1934. I'm not quite sold on that.
    I'm not on my side on the other hand too convinced that a linguistic expansion could and should be connected to a single male lineage only, in this case especially to a N-VL29 based male lineage, in the otherwise very much N-Z1934 biased surroundings. That being said, nothing against N-CTS3451 being part of the Meryanic gene pool, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    There are no preL1025 in Sweden and also Zelto does not claim that. My main issue with Zelto, was claim, that L1025 originated in Estonia, while there is no such evidence of that scale movement of people from Estonia and it contradicts known history of the region to fill Lithuania and Latvia with L1025 - absolutely zero evidence of that made up claim, but there is evidence of people moving to the north from Latvia and only arrogant or peple of low intellect can do such research, that will offend nonEstonians.
    As for origin of L550, Ytree does not claim that ancient L550 in Estonia to be L550*, but it has problems classifying to which clade it belongs, and it will take some time to classify it so I also thought, that he was too hasty in declaring Estonia as origin of L550. In other words, at this point we know abslolutelly nothing and Zelto was just messing his own head and heads of others, who regarded that information as proven. As a result, my opinion on that information was not really favorable and that is really nice but not precise thing to say what I am thinking what Zelto was trying to do and it is still not, even if you will repost that crap 100x times.
    First of all, there is only one Iron Age sample from Sweden (~400AD ÷land N-L550) and the majority of "preL1025" N-L550+ subclades are rooted in Sweden, at least according to the current sampling done by YFull.

    The early-Tarands were rich in N-L550 2800-2400ybp, around the estimated TMRCA of N-L550 itself. I never said N-L1025 or N-L550 originated in Estonia, rather my opinion is that they spread from there with early-Tarands. You're claim that there was no scale movement from Estonia is incorrect, the early-Tarand people colonized coastal areas of Sweden, Courland and SW Finland.

    The phylogeny of N-L550 disputes the notion that Balts from Belarus/Russia(?) were the progenitors of N-L1025. If they had spread independently from the N-L550 rich early-Tarands, the Latvian/Lithuanian subclades would have to be >2800ybp. However, N-L1025 only has a TMRCA of 2500ybp and even then, some of its earliest subclades are "Fennoscandian". Also, one of the early-Tarands (VII4) may already be N-L1025+.

    The Estonian N-L550* in YFull is from the medieval period. Its not ancestral to any living branch, but at least attests to the former diversity of subclades in Estonia.

    It's odd you've taken such a strong position on a subject you know very little about. And what's with all this bullying talk now? Just accept that you've got more to learn, no one here was "harassing" you...

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