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Thread: N1c in the Balts

  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    I'm not on my side on the other hand too convinced that a linguistic expansion could and should be connected to a single male lineage only, in this case especially to a N-VL29 based male lineage, in the otherwise very much N-Z1934 biased surroundings. That being said, nothing against N-CTS3451 being part of the Meryanic gene pool, of course.
    The original diversity may have been severely reduced by founder effects. To me it doesn't seem that the branches leading to CTS9976(L1022+CTS3451) and Z1928 originate very far from each other. Maybe one in Tver and the other in Yaroslavl/Kostroma. I think the distinction between them is exaggerated and they did not constitute truly different populations at least initially but rather a single extended population speaking the same language. I'm a bit cautious about these supposed Z1934-biased surroundings. On the N1c1 project, there's whole lot of L1022(either Y5004 or pre-Y5004) from Vologda, way more than Z1934. It could be the result of Votes/Russian-assimilated Votes moving east. From the few Vologdan L1022 on YFull it seems like that might be the case but pre-Y5004 being found in Vologda would be very interesting but not particularly surprising.

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  5. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    The original diversity may have been severely reduced by founder effects. To me it doesn't seem that the branches leading to CTS9976(L1022+CTS3451) and Z1928 originate very far from each other. Maybe one in Tver and the other in Yaroslavl/Kostroma. I think the distinction between them is exaggerated and they did not constitute truly different populations at least initially but rather a single extended population speaking the same language. I'm a bit cautious about these supposed Z1934-biased surroundings. On the N1c1 project, there's whole lot of L1022(either Y5004 or pre-Y5004) from Vologda, way more than Z1934. It could be the result of Votes/Russian-assimilated Votes moving east. From the few Vologdan L1022 on YFull it seems like that might be the case but pre-Y5004 being found in Vologda would be very interesting but not particularly surprising.
    Good points as always, but even if nothing has been proven yet, Meryanic seems to be a part of the linguistic continuum leading to Saamic. If that is true, but Meryanic is just N-CTS3452, where did N-Z1934 then come from?

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  7. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    First of all, there is only one Iron Age sample from Sweden (~400AD ึland N-L550) and the majority of "preL1025" N-L550+ subclades are rooted in Sweden, at least according to the current sampling done by YFull.

    The early-Tarands were rich in N-L550 2800-2400ybp, around the estimated TMRCA of N-L550 itself. I never said N-L1025 or N-L550 originated in Estonia, rather my opinion is that they spread from there with early-Tarands. You're claim that there was no scale movement from Estonia is incorrect, the early-Tarand people colonized coastal areas of Sweden, Courland and SW Finland.

    The phylogeny of N-L550 disputes the notion that Balts from Belarus/Russia(?) were the progenitors of N-L1025. If they had spread independently from the N-L550 rich early-Tarands, the Latvian/Lithuanian subclades would have to be >2800ybp. However, N-L1025 only has a TMRCA of 2500ybp and even then, some of its earliest subclades are "Fennoscandian". Also, one of the early-Tarands (VII4) may already be N-L1025+.

    The Estonian N-L550* in YFull is from the medieval period. Its not ancestral to any living branch, but at least attests to the former diversity of subclades in Estonia.

    It's odd you've taken such a strong position on a subject you know very little about. And what's with all this bullying talk now? Just accept that you've got more to learn, no one here was "harassing" you...


    The so called colonization in coastal areas produces only few Tarand graves, that compared to Estonia is not really a full scale colonization, besides I have to repeat third time, that there is significantly lesser presence of N1a in western Latvia(about 30%) and Lithuania and much larger presence of R1a(70%), to claim that N1a colonized those regions from there. That idea, that coastal regions were infested with N1a has been debunked, because Livonians themselves were not pure N1a, but heavy mix - and possibly they were R1a long before they arrived in Latvia. Besides, their linguistical affinity with Southern Estonian languages comes mostly from interaction and absorbtion of Leivs in Vidzeme - possibly even that their name was corrupted version of Leivs, that was given to Germans. Basically existence of Livonians gives more questions than there are answers and you would have hard time finding some Uralic people, that appeared in Curland, before Livonians, because there were none. Besides, Livonians upon arrival in Courland were praticising burial customs of vikings(they also were affiliated with vikings in Daugava settlements and together with vikings fought against Baltic) and who even knows what language they spoke initially - maybe even Swedish.
    So, also you do not have answer to question regarding of source and why there is higher presence(70%) of R1a in Courland - did it existed before N1a, did it arrived later. etc. This is really not a question about L550 anymore, but also R1a, that you are skipping to mention in Estonia. From where did it appeared? Does ancient burials of Old Prussians really produce any N1a, to back your bold claim, that they were N1a? So far there are no such ancient dna. Have you really researched these issues - it seems to me that you are pointing something on a wall randomly and make it as a goal.

    Here is another problem, that you are not noticing in regards to Southern Estonian people, that arrived in Estonia earlier than other Finnic people - including Estonian speakers. How they are standing in regards to those Tarand graves? Quite a lot of them are very much in their territory, though it would be harder to link them to L550, so that also is another issue, but hey - it is your problem to find a solution to find connections.


    Younger clades are youngest, because they moved to other places and had some genetical changes that distinguished them from more archaical clades. More often. they are also most populous, compared to their older clades. And more ancient sister clades were more often spreading after younger ones - sometimes mixing with younger clade, that had traveled first. This is something that can be observed in spreading pattern of R1a and R1b, also N1 and N2 and also many many others, so that it can be made as a rule, as there are rarely exceptions to this behavior, unless clades went extinct and this pattern can not be observed anymore. So in this regard, it makes more sense to explanation, why more ancient L550 clades spread later than L1025 and why spread of L1025 happened earlier than spread of other L550 clades. That also explains, why neither L550 nor L1025 origins can not be in Estonia, but place of destination to those clades. And you are still insisting in some explanation of how clades spread, that looks like exception, that common behavior.

    Asking me questions, and ridiculing them at the same time not giving answers to my questions is not scientifical discussion, but pure harassment. Maybe there is another word for that, but certainly it is not scientific discussion.
    Last edited by arpatir; 07-22-2021 at 09:34 PM.

  8. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Good points as always, but even if nothing has been proven yet, Meryanic seems to be a part of the linguistic continuum leading to Saamic. If that is true, but Meryanic is just N-CTS3452, where did N-Z1934 then come from?
    I think Z1925 has something to do with the Ananyino influences in Finland at 1000 BC, mediated of course by whatever Kostromans were involved rather than being direct Central Uralic influence. I'm sure you could find also Meryans with Z1934 just not with Z1925, unless they had assimilated some VL62 or what not.

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  10. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    This was already many times discussed here and please check this new paper which shows Western Fatyanovo with only Z93 so far

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/4/eabd6535

    There is also a thread here where we are discussing the Fatyanovo results if you want to read more about Fatyanovo.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....European-plain

    This is false claim, than can be proven by reading provided links. They have 4 samples of M558 out of 14 and M558 does not belong to Z93.

  11. #748
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    @arpatir,
    “ besides I have to repeat third time, that there is significantly lesser presence of N1a in western Latvia(about 30%) and Lithuania and much larger presence of R1a(70%)”
    Care to backup your information with actual sources? Level of R1a seems SLIGHTLY exaggerated ;-)

  12. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    The so called colonization in coastal areas produces only few Tarand graves, that compared to Estonia is not really a full scale colonization,
    The consensus among actual archaeologists (Marika Magi, Valter Lang, Andres Tvauri, etc.) is that only elite families were buried in early-Tarands. Their presence indicates a much larger population.

    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    besides I have to repeat third time, that there is significantly lesser presence of N1a in western Latvia(about 30%) and Lithuania and much larger presence of R1a(70%), to claim that N1a colonized those regions from there. That idea, that coastal regions were infested with N1a has been debunked, because Livonians themselves were not pure N1a, but heavy mix - and possibly they were R1a long before they arrived in Latvia. Besides, their linguistical affinity with Southern Estonian languages comes mostly from interaction and absorbtion of Leivs in Vidzeme - possibly even that their name was corrupted version of Leivs, that was given to Germans. Basically existence of Livonians gives more questions than there are answers and you would have hard time finding some Uralic people, that appeared in Curland, before Livonians, because there were none. Besides, Livonians upon arrival in Courland were praticising burial customs of vikings(they also were affiliated with vikings in Daugava settlements and together with vikings fought against Baltic) and who even knows what language they spoke initially - maybe even Swedish.
    So, also you do not have answer to question regarding of source and why there is higher presence(70%) of R1a in Courland - did it existed before N1a, did it arrived later. etc. This is really not a question about L550 anymore, but also R1a, that you are skipping to mention in Estonia. From where did it appeared? Does ancient burials of Old Prussians really produce any N1a, to back your bold claim, that they were N1a? So far there are no such ancient dna. Have you really researched these issues - it seems to me that you are pointing something on a wall randomly and make it as a goal.
    Like Parastais said, these percentages you're throwing around look off. Either way, you're still relying on modern frequencies, which have little bearing on the genetic landscape 2800 years ago. Even if Courland is 70% R1a, as little as a few centuries ago it could have been 70% N1c (not saying it actually was). See the problem? Ancient DNA is king and when there is none, something might be gained by looking at the diversity of subclades, although even that is often inadequate.

    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    Here is another problem, that you are not noticing in regards to Southern Estonian people, that arrived in Estonia earlier than other Finnic people - including Estonian speakers. How they are standing in regards to those Tarand graves? Quite a lot of them are very much in their territory, though it would be harder to link them to L550, so that also is another issue, but hey - it is your problem to find a solution to find connections.
    Like I said initially, native Estonian N-L550* branches were replaced by downstream "Baltic" N-L1025 branches and N-L1022. However, we know for a fact Iron Age Estonians were rich in N-L550.

    Younger clades are youngest, because they moved to other places and had some genetical changes that distinguished them from more archaical clades. More often. they are also most populous, compared to their older clades. And more ancient sister clades were more often spreading after younger ones - sometimes mixing with younger clade, that had traveled first. This is something that can be observed in spreading pattern of R1a and R1b, also N1 and N2 and also many many others, so that it can be made as a rule, as there are rarely exceptions to this behavior, unless clades went extinct and this pattern can not be observed anymore. So in this regard, it makes more sense to explanation, why more ancient L550 clades spread later than L1025 and why spread of L1025 happened earlier than spread of other L550 clades. That also explains, why neither L550 nor L1025 origins can not be in Estonia, but place of destination to those clades. And you are still insisting in some explanation of how clades spread, that looks like exception, that common behavior.
    Did you just come up with this "rule" off the top of your head? Sure, some young subclades are more successful than older branches, but its nonsensical to assume younger subclades must always spread before older ones. The earliest N-L1025 subclades formed 2500ybp, the earliest N-L550 subclades formed 2800ybp... why would you assume N-L1025 began proliferating earlier? And why would you assume it was with a Baltic speaking population, when there are also early Fennoscandian branches?

    Quote Originally Posted by arpatir View Post
    Asking me questions, and ridiculing them at the same time not giving answers to my questions is not scientifical discussion, but pure harassment. Maybe there is another word for that, but certainly it is not scientific discussion.
    You established very early on that you did not want to engage in respectful discussion. Moreover, you've continually made inaccurate and unsubstantiated claims.

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