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Thread: R1b-L277.1* R1b-M269>L23>L150>Z2103>Z2105>L277.1* 2014

  1. #1
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    R1b-L277.1* R1b-M269>L23>L150>Z2103>Z2105>L277.1* 2014

    L277.1 Haplogroup - R1b1a2a2b RefSNP ID - rs2538852 Mutation - T->C
    L277.1 - ISOGG
    L277 - 23andme
    L277.1 or L277 has been found from Kolkata, India to The Hague, The Netherlands in very small numbers so far. Small hot spots have been found with the Assyrian and Swiss Anabaptist communities. No intermediate SNPs between Z2103/Z2105 and L277.1 have been found so far.
    Please post any L277.1 results or information on this thread so we can follow any developments in 2014. The expectation is a lot more L277.1 is out there just waiting to be tested.
    Edit: Please keep the focus on R1b-L277.1
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-17-2013 at 06:08 PM. Reason: L277.1 Focus

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  3. #2
    I have written a lot about this also on this forum. We don't start from anything. So far it seems that there isn't any L277+ haplotype that hasn't DYS392=14, thus the subclade should be very recent, i.e. from the Indo-European expansion. This could explain the diffusion in all the IE world.

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  5. #3
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    Found three haplotypes that look like L277.1 in the Timurids(The Emperor of India) Y-DNA Project.
    #69057, #69058, #69060 should test L277.1.
    MODE 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18


    Timurid dynasty Wikipedia
    The Timurid Empire in 1405 CE The Timurid dynasty (Persian: تیموریان‎), self-designated Gurkānī [3][4][5] (Persian: گوركانى‎), was a Persianate,[6][7] Sunni Muslim dynasty of Turco-Mongol lineage[7][8][9][10] which ruled over modern-day Iran, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, India, Mesopotamia, Anatolia and the Caucasus. The dynasty was founded by Timur (Tamerlane) in the 14th century.
    Y DNA tree - early and undefined branches Project
    India subcontinent DNA Project
    Edit: Add #216616 from the Afghan-Pakistani DNA Project too.
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-16-2013 at 11:22 PM.

  6. #4
    69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
    69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    184412 Karsli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-18 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 18 37-37 12 12

    These 3 hapotypes belong to an unique family closely related and for their 13, 14, 28, they could be R-L277+. The other haplotype could be an L584+. But they are a few R1b and demonstrate for their scarcity that this haplogroup wasn't born there.

  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Edit: Add #216616 from the Afghan-Pakistani DNA Project too.
    216616 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28

    Also this haplotype belongs to the same family,
    Tanoli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
    69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    184412 Karsli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-18 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 18 37-37 12 12

    These 3 hapotypes belong to an unique family closely related and for their 13, 14, 28, they could be R-L277+. The other haplotype could be an L584+. But they are a few R1b and demonstrate for their scarcity that this haplogroup wasn't born there.
    Why did you put #184412 with the DYS393=13 with the Timurids with DYS393=14 that seem R1b-L277.1+? That is confusing.

    This Timurids group fits your idea of a late dispersal for L277.1 for south central Asia.
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-17-2013 at 01:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Small hot spots have been found with the Assyrian and Swiss Anabaptist communities.
    Thanks for the info, Joe. More on Anabaptists (Wikipedia):

    Anabaptists are Christians of the Radical Reformation of 16th-century Europe. Although some consider the Anabaptist movement to be an offshoot of Protestantism, others see it as a distinct movement. The Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites are direct descendants of the movement.

    ....

    Common Anabaptist beliefs and practices of the 16th century continue to influence modern Christianity and Western society.

    Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice – the authority of the Scriptures
    Freedom of religion – liberty of conscience
    Separation of church and state
    Pacifism or nonresistance
    Separation or nonconformity to the world
    Voluntary church membership and believer's baptism
    Evangelistic zeal
    Priesthood of all believers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    More on Anabaptists (Wikipedia):
    Anabaptists are Christians of the Radical Reformation of 16th-century Europe. Although some consider the Anabaptist movement to be an offshoot of Protestantism, others see it as a distinct movement. The Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites are direct descendants of the movement.
    #159189 from the Netherlands belongs to the Huguenot Y-DNA project. The Huguenots are another group connected to the Reformation in Switzerland and France.
    el wikipedia
    The Huguenots (/ˈhjuːɡənɒt/ or /huːɡəˈnoʊ/; French: [yɡno], [yɡəno]) were members of the Protestant Reformed Church of France during the 16th and 17th centuries. French Protestants were inspired by the writings of John Calvin in the 1530s, and they were called Huguenots by the 1560s. By the end of the 17th century and into the 18th century, roughly 500,000 Huguenots had fled France during a series of religious persecutions.
    L277.1 is found in interesting places.
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-17-2013 at 12:45 AM.

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  13. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Why did you put #184412 with the DYS393=13 with the Timurids with DYS393=14 that seem R1b-L277.1+? That is confusing.

    This Timurids group fits your idea of a late dispersal for L277.1 for south central Asia.
    Because they were the unique hg. R1b in that Project, i.e. only 2: 1 L277+ and probably 1 L584+, and also the other from Pakistan belongs to the same family of the former ones. Result: only 1 L277+ in all that place. Which does it demonstrate? That hg. L277+ has arrived there from elsewhere, probably from the region around the Caucasus, and, if it is linked with the expansion of the Indo-Europeans, they didn't come from India, but they arrived in India from elsewhere.
    Second: if we'll find in all Middle East to India only L277+ and L584+, what should we think about the origin of Z2105+? And if L277 is relatively recent for not having found any sample with a mutation in DYS392, shouldn't we consider it like a paragroup like L51 with its DYS426=13 or like M269 if will be demonstrate that all are L150+/PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+?
    Don't you think that this is important to shed some light on the origin of Z2105+? Of course this origin could not saying anything about the origin of L23*, not found so far and probably not existing now, but if we put together this fact with others, probably we could made some conclusions:
    1) only Europe has all the subclades of Z2105, not L584 if not in the Jewish pool which may have come from elsewhere, but Europe has so far PF7580* (of course if Carnevali and Aghinitei will be tested negative for L584)
    2) so far the most ancestral haplotype of Z2105 is the Tuscan of the 1KGP
    3) also about L277+ Europe has very varied haplotypes, not only the Swiss Burkhholders, but also the Italian Manno and Stasi
    All what I said would bring me to think that Z2105 comes from Europe. Of course we are waiting for every other next result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    216616 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28

    Also this haplotype belongs to the same family,
    Tanoli.
    Found a Tanoli that is L23+ L277- L584- L51- of the same haplotype in the R1b-Early spreadsheet. Just goes to show that 13, 14, 28 is not a L277.1+ guarantee. This Tanoli does not belong to any FTDNA project.
    There is a fair amount of L277.1+ presumption going on in some of the projects. Maybe a new push to L277 SNP test is in order just to see if what is out there is replicable.
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-31-2013 at 09:00 AM.

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