Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 46

Thread: R1b U152>L2> Z49>S8183>> Y4355

  1. #31
    Registered Users
    Posts
    23
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-V View Post
    I'm not saying that tree output is perfectly correct by the way because I just put in the STRs and basic SNP information available from the U152 project. If you want to run the tool yourselves, I created this spreadsheet from the U152 project and used it (cut-and-paste) to create this TXT file of just the Y4354 members. The TXT file is what you really need if you want to run it through the tool yourselves and get the same output, then you can add or change the kits used in the run or otherwise modify the TXT file anyway you like.

    SAPP has a learning curve to use it but you can review the Inputs page for an explanation of the TXT file sections and if you check the FAQ page you'll see links to videos and explanations. The "The Science" and "Credits" pages have links to various technical papers and sources for the algorithms.
    Man, this is great! ) Ive seen this tool before, but I had no clue you were the author! I was not sure how to use it. Now that you posted those examples it makes it way easier. Thanks!

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Roslav For This Useful Post:

     Dave-V (06-23-2019)

  3. #32
    Junior Member
    Posts
    4
    Sex
    Location
    Russia
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Nationality
    Russian
    Y-DNA
    R-S8172

    Russian Federation
    Hello!
    My name is Sergey and my ancestor Ankudin Ievlev (IN30992) with the haplogroup R-S8172.
    Last edited by serckesh; 06-24-2019 at 04:09 AM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to serckesh For This Useful Post:

     Roslav (06-24-2019)

  5. #33
    Junior Member
    Posts
    4
    Sex
    Location
    Russia
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Nationality
    Russian
    Y-DNA
    R-S8172

    Russian Federation
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-V View Post
    Guys i hope you don't mind my butting in; I saw earlier in this thread a request for some STR-based TMRCA analysis. The McGee utility is very good for that and gives TMRCA estimates based on overall STR mutation rate averages; you can get estimates with a tighter error range if you search for Colin Ferguson's adaptation of the McGee utility and use the "Group" option there which applies individual STR mutation rates so the estimates are guided more by what specific markers have changed.

    The SAPP tool also does individual STR rate-based TMRCA estimates so I took the liberty of running the publicly-available kit information for the Y4354 subgroups of the U152 project through the tool. I see earlier in this thread that you ran the SNPTREE tool on the SAPP website to draw the Y4354 subtree but that's just a graphic tool; the SAPP tool on that website analyzes STR results and draws the most likely branching tree for a group of kits, guided by the SNP results, so it integrates both SNP and STR information.

    The tool's tree output for about 39 kits that I found (again this is publicly-displayed information, hope that's ok) is here. Each blue box representing a common ancestor has a TMRCA estimate in green. These will not always match SNP-based TMRCA estimates and the real answer as to which is right depends on how closely either STR mutations or SNP mutations have conformed to statistical norms within any subtree - so basically without other evidence to support one or the other, either COULD be correct. However as others have noted, STR-based TMRCA estimates tend to fall off in accuracy after about 1500 years (so say before about 500AD).

    I'm not saying that tree output is perfectly correct by the way because I just put in the STRs and basic SNP information available from the U152 project. If you want to run the tool yourselves, I created this spreadsheet from the U152 project and used it (cut-and-paste) to create this TXT file of just the Y4354 members. The TXT file is what you really need if you want to run it through the tool yourselves and get the same output, then you can add or change the kits used in the run or otherwise modify the TXT file anyway you like.

    SAPP has a learning curve to use it but you can review the Inputs page for an explanation of the TXT file sections and if you check the FAQ page you'll see links to videos and explanations. The "The Science" and "Credits" pages have links to various technical papers and sources for the algorithms.

    You have a very good tree.

    Could you add there:

    269030 R-S8172 Johannes pĺ Aga m 1519 Ullensvang HRD Norway
    13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 28 15 9-10 11 11 25 14 17 29 15-15-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 34-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 12 11 11 12 12 15 15 12 12 12 8 10 22 15 17 13 24 17 12 15 25 12 24 18 10 14 17 9 12 11

    IN49394 Shchetkin Emelian, (1903-1975). Valuiki-Sv.Luchka Russia
    13 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 14 17 29 15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 14 18 16 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 11 11 12 12 12 8 10 20 15 20 13 24 17 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 19 9 12 11

    331744 Johann Georg Kirbach, b. abt 1681 d.1721 Germany
    13 25 15 10 11-15 12 12 10 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 15 17 29 16-16-17-19 11 11-23-23 15 15 18 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-15 8 10 10 8 8 8 10 22 15 18 13 24 14 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11

    326953 Sweden
    13 24 15 11 11-15 12 12 10 13 13 28 16 9-9 11 11 24 15 17 30 16-16-17-19 11 11 23-23 15 15 18 10 8 8

    746202
    13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 28 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-16-17 11 11-23-23 16 16 18 16 36-38 12 12

    IN50024
    Ambrosio Rodríguez b.1842
    14 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 15 15 17 31 15-15-17 17 9
    Last edited by serckesh; 06-24-2019 at 04:16 AM.

  6. #34
    Registered Users
    Posts
    241
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-L21 L513*

    United States of America Ireland Germany Belgium Wallonia
    Quote Originally Posted by serckesh View Post
    You have a very good tree.

    Could you add there:

    269030 R-S8172 Johannes pĺ Aga m 1519 Ullensvang HRD Norway
    13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 28 15 9-10 11 11 25 14 17 29 15-15-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 34-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 12 11 11 12 12 15 15 12 12 12 8 10 22 15 17 13 24 17 12 15 25 12 24 18 10 14 17 9 12 11

    IN49394 Shchetkin Emelian, (1903-1975). Valuiki-Sv.Luchka Russia
    13 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 14 17 29 15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 14 18 16 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 11 11 12 12 12 8 10 20 15 20 13 24 17 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 19 9 12 11

    331744 Johann Georg Kirbach, b. abt 1681 d.1721 Germany
    13 25 15 10 11-15 12 12 10 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 15 17 29 16-16-17-19 11 11-23-23 15 15 18 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-15 8 10 10 8 8 8 10 22 15 18 13 24 14 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11

    326953 Sweden
    13 24 15 11 11-15 12 12 10 13 13 28 16 9-9 11 11 24 15 17 30 16-16-17-19 11 11 23-23 15 15 18 10 8 8

    746202
    13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 28 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-16-17 11 11-23-23 16 16 18 16 36-38 12 12

    IN50024
    Ambrosio Rodríguez b.1842
    14 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 15 15 17 31 15-15-17 17 9
    I can certainly add them - see this tree picture with these new 6 kits colored in orange. I assumed they were all S8172+, if that's not correct let me know (it looks especially questionable for kit IN50024).

    I was not able to use ALL the STRs you posted because they're not consistently in FTDNA order; I had to add the 4th DYS464 values in certain cases and truncate several kits when the markers were clearly not in the same order. If you can direct me to a project DNA Results page or somewhere these kits are listed I might be able to make use of more markers.

    These are the kits with the values I was able to determine (click on picture to enlarge):
    Temp.jpg

    Overall the placement of these kits is likely less certain given the smaller number of markers available to determine their branches; if they could be upgraded or if you had SNP data to help guide their placement there would be higher odds of correct placement.

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dave-V For This Useful Post:

     Nino90 (06-24-2019),  Robbiem1 (06-26-2019),  Roslav (06-24-2019)

  8. #35
    Registered Users
    Posts
    36
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R-Y4355
    mtDNA
    H

    Hi this a question for Roslav, could you tell us your FTDNA kit# & your oldest known ancestor & origin & what level of testing you have done & what groups you belong to ?

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Roy Paul For This Useful Post:

     Roslav (06-27-2019)

  10. #36
    Registered Users
    Posts
    23
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Paul View Post
    Hi this a question for Roslav, could you tell us your FTDNA kit# & your oldest known ancestor & origin & what level of testing you have done & what groups you belong to ?
    Hey Roy! I only took the FTDNA's 111 STR so thus far and I have not joined any groups nor projects yet. Being mostly interested in recent genealogy I wanted to fish out potential cousins. Until I do a proper SNP test that would confirm my haplogroup with 100% certainty, I think I wont be joining any of the projects. Nevgen predicts Im 98% Y4355, but Id like to be absolutely sure of that (or in fact of being R1b). So I am considering getting BigY, however it is pricey ) and besides, now I know it has a 30 SNP limit. This sucks a bit. But it would at least confirm my position on the tree. Given all of this, and the results of pairwise STR comparisons, I think that if Im indeed y4355 then I will likely end up being some deep-rooting offshoot of one of the main branches, or perhaps an entirely new branch altogether. My oldest confirmed ancestor is a certain Stanislaus, a Polish peasant from Masovia in Poland (born ca 1610 and died some time between 1676 and 1688). He might have been son of Maciej (born ca. 1580), however the relative instability of surnames in those times precludes any true certainty. Anyway, quite an ordinary family I'd say, and, given the uneventful history of that region prior to 1600s, they had very likely been there around in 1400s or early 1500s. I will PM you my kit.

  11. #37
    Registered Users
    Posts
    36
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R-Y4355
    mtDNA
    H

    Roslav Nevgen is not a certainty as I learnt when it predicted me as DF27 @ 67 markers so I purchased the DF27 snp pack and I was negative.
    If you do decide to join the FTDNA U152 group we can compare STR's and you would likely be able to determine if in fact you are Y4355 !

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Roy Paul For This Useful Post:

     Roslav (06-28-2019)

  13. #38
    Registered Users
    Posts
    23
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Paul View Post
    Roslav Nevgen is not a certainty as I learnt when it predicted me as DF27 @ 67 markers so I purchased the DF27 snp pack and I was negative.
    If you do decide to join the FTDNA U152 group we can compare STR's and you would likely be able to determine if in fact you are Y4355 !
    That is very possible, that's why Id rather get the proper test done first, and look at the SNPs. 98% seems pretty high, but I think if you actually run a test: me vs all other guys available from U152, there is still one guy from Cornwall who is even closer to me than Myers, and perhaps Qvardfordt too. However he belongs to a different clade. I did such a comparison few weeks ago. Maybe I will re-do it today just to be sure. I'll PM you.



    Edit: So I've actually run my 111 STRs against all 1063 samples from the R1b U152 Project who also tested for 111 STRs, assuming infinite allele mutation model (here: http://www.dna.cfsna.net/HAP/Modified-yUtility.htm) and...

    1. Almost all samples show differences of 30-50 vs mine (not more than 50 though)
    2. Only about 25 out of 1063, that is 2,35% have a difference of less than 30; 7 out of those 25 are Y4355
    3. None shows difference of 25 or less, except for Myers (24) and Qvarfordt (20)
    Last edited by Roslav; 06-28-2019 at 12:46 PM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Roslav For This Useful Post:

     Robbiem1 (06-29-2019)

  15. #39
    Junior Member
    Posts
    8
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    Y4355

    Hi again, well that result is really quite amazing. it seems to me there is only one way to go now and that is BigY, which saves messing about with all the intermediate stuff and gets you to the end position.
    As I remind myself, every time Mr Paul and I take a step forward, we find ourselves becoming closer despite the differences. You will never know otherwise. I would better value your contribution from a position of proximity.
    Rob

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Robbiem1 For This Useful Post:

     Roslav (06-29-2019)

  17. #40
    Registered Users
    Posts
    23
    Sex

    Thanks Rob! I think that is exactly what I am going to do this summer. As for the test, mean difference between me and most U152 individuals was approx 36,8 at 111 STRs with an SD of approx 3,8 while none of the Y4355 individuals had more differences than 35 with most ranging between 27-33. Out of the 19 or so non-y4355 samples with less than 30 differences by far most were L2 with quite a few S8183 (and a few unassigned). 5 out of those 19 belonged to the Graves/Graeves family.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Roslav For This Useful Post:

     Robbiem1 (06-29-2019)

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Z56 (U152>Z56) - an early branch of U152
    By Mikewww in forum R1b-U152
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 05-25-2019, 02:48 AM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-12-2019, 08:35 PM
  3. Replies: 39
    Last Post: 03-09-2019, 02:44 AM
  4. U152+ Z192+
    By R.Rocca in forum R1b-U152
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-31-2016, 09:48 AM
  5. U152.org Gone?
    By Scarlet Ibis in forum R1b-U152
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-29-2013, 12:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •