Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9101112 LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 111

Thread: Ancient DNA reveals a multistep spread of the first herders into sub-Saharan Africa

  1. #101
    Registered Users
    Posts
    117
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Banyamulenge
    Nationality
    D.R.Congo
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M4451
    mtDNA (M)
    L3e1a2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-M293
    mtDNA (P)
    L4b2a2b

    Congo Kinshasa United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Yeah, Espoir sent me some of those Tutsi genomes a while back. I think I averaged 12 of them (5 Banyamulenge, 3 Rawanda Tutsi, 3 half-Rawanda/Burundi Tutsi, and 1 Burundi Tutsi) into a Tutsi_Avg.

    Tutsi_Avg_scaled,-0.436606667,0.078364917,-0.010370917,-0.038167833,0.000153833,-0.019847583,-0.007735583,0.005076833,0.077821167,-0.066136583,-0.00829525,0.006069583,-0.013912167,-8.03E-05,0.0076455,-0.006673583,0.01030025,0.0003485,0.003496636,-0.004856583,0.00023925,0.001947583,-0.00169475,-0.0006325,-0.0010875

    They are very similar to the IA KEN Pastoral samples, the ones IIRC that showed some Bantu-like admixture. Tutsis' closest 1:1 modern match in the G25 are the Maasai.
    My question is: does anyone have Hutu genomes? Would they just basically be the same as the "Bantu SE" target? If so, the genetic distance between Hutu and Tutsi is a LOT larger than I think many expected. Puts to rest the notion that the Dutch "invented" these separate identities, otherwise how could Hutu and Tutsi have possibly remained distinct populations for so long???
    Thatís so wrong. Europeans didnít make any of that up. It was already there. But, it was more social status. And here is where it gets interesting. Economy of kingdom of Rwanda was based of cattle. The more cows you had, the richer you were. Then, we have to all agree that ancestors of Tutsis introduced cattle in that kingdom and were royals( not all but some clans). For an agriculturalist to raise his status was almost impossible. The most common instance that could bring to that was if he did something great and was rewarded by the king with cattle and he could marry among Tutsis. N.B: this was not the only scenario, but the most common.
    With all that being said, as much as it was social but it was also tied with oneís ethnicity. And intermarriage between Tutsis and Hutus was very rare if it even happened up until the post-colonial times when the monarchy was removed.
    Have this guy from Burundi with all known ancestors from that country. Genetically, he is a good representative for Hutus. Go ahead and use him.
     
    Brdi_scaled,-0.570254,0.067025,0.008297,-0.001938,0.004924,0.002231,-0.003995,0.011999,0.003272,-0.008383,-0.001299,0.005695,-0.010704,-0.00055,-0.015336,0.011668,-0.007823,0.004434,-0.004148,0.002626,-0.003119,-0.002597,0.002342,0.000843,-0.001197

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    Brdi,-0.0501,0.0066,0.0022,-0.0006,0.0016,0.0008,-0.0017,0.0052,0.0016,-0.0046,-0.0008,0.0038,-0.0072,-0.0004,-0.0113,0.0088,-0.006,0.0035,-0.0033,0.0021,-0.0025,-0.0021,0.0019,0.0007,-0.001



    Distance to: Tutsi_Avg_scaled

    0.04571286 Masai
    0.05326832 KEN_Pastoral_IA
    0.07511390 Sandawe
    0.11413422 Ethiopian_Gumuz
    0.13629319 Somali_Kenya
    0.15524229 Somali
    0.15536109 KEN_Pastoral_N
    0.15984858 Dinka
    0.16610025 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan
    0.17248676 Ethiopian_Oromo
    0.21988143 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
    0.22229041 Bantu_Kenya
    0.22522008 Ethiopian_Amhara
    0.24266265 Bantu_S.W.
    0.25575511 Bantu_S.E.
    0.27094186 Yoruba
    0.59746603 Ju_hoan_North

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Espoir For This Useful Post:

     Michalis Moriopoulos (12-11-2019)

  3. #102
    Registered Users
    Posts
    35
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Tutsi
    Nationality
    Rwandan
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M293
    mtDNA (M)
    M1a1f

    Rwanda Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    I never recalled seeing groups like Ogiek or Elmolo in the G25... when were they added?

    BTW, I specifically asked David to add Fulani to the G25 when he got the chance (raw data released already).... he said he needs the genotype data
    Do you want more Fulani samples. If you have BAM files, you can email them to me.
    Thanks

  4. #103
    Registered Users
    Posts
    563
    Sex
    Location
    Central Florida
    Ethnicity
    Aegean Greek
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L26 (J2a1)
    mtDNA (M)
    J1b1a

    Greece United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    That’s so wrong. Europeans didn’t make any of that up. It was already there. But, it was more social status. And here is where it gets interesting. Economy of kingdom of Rwanda was based of cattle. The more cows you had, the richer you were. Then, we have to all agree that ancestors of Tutsis introduced cattle in that kingdom and were royals( not all but some clans). For an agriculturalist to raise his status was almost impossible. The most common instance that could bring to that was if he did something great and was rewarded by the king with cattle and he could marry among Tutsis. N.B: this was not the only scenario, but the most common.
    With all that being said, as much as it was social but it was also tied with one’s ethnicity. And intermarriage between Tutsis and Hutus was very rare if it even happened up until the post-colonial times when the monarchy was removed.
    Have this guy from Burundi with all known ancestors from that country. Genetically, he is a good representative for Hutus. Go ahead and use him.
     
    Brdi_scaled,-0.570254,0.067025,0.008297,-0.001938,0.004924,0.002231,-0.003995,0.011999,0.003272,-0.008383,-0.001299,0.005695,-0.010704,-0.00055,-0.015336,0.011668,-0.007823,0.004434,-0.004148,0.002626,-0.003119,-0.002597,0.002342,0.000843,-0.001197

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    Brdi,-0.0501,0.0066,0.0022,-0.0006,0.0016,0.0008,-0.0017,0.0052,0.0016,-0.0046,-0.0008,0.0038,-0.0072,-0.0004,-0.0113,0.0088,-0.006,0.0035,-0.0033,0.0021,-0.0025,-0.0021,0.0019,0.0007,-0.001
    Thanks for this. Wow, the difference is night and day:

     






    Quote Originally Posted by David Reich, Who We Are and How We Got Here, pg. 267
    Similarly, the idea that the Tutsis in Rwanda and Burundi have ancestry from West Eurasian farmers that Hutus do not—an idea that has been incorporated into arguments for genocide—is nonsense.
    I remember reading this and thinking, "Errrrm, probably not a good example." The Belgians' racist stupidity is not excusable and doubtlessly exacerbated tensions in the region, but that doesn't mean there aren't significant differences between Hutu and Tutsi.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Alfa (12-11-2019),  Angoliga (12-11-2019)

  6. #104
    Registered Users
    Posts
    117
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Banyamulenge
    Nationality
    D.R.Congo
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M4451
    mtDNA (M)
    L3e1a2
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-M293
    mtDNA (P)
    L4b2a2b

    Congo Kinshasa United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Thanks for this. Wow, the difference is night and day:

     








    I remember reading this and thinking, "Errrrm, probably not a good example." The Belgians' racist stupidity is not excusable and doubtlessly exacerbated tensions in the region, but that doesn't mean there aren't significant differences between Hutu and Tutsi.
    The difference look indeed huge. Anybody has a tool that calculates estimated time of gene flow in populations to see when these Tutsi samples we have owe their West African/Bantu ancestry from Hutus? I suspect it’s another Bantu group around lakes regions and it might be ancient with minor recent geneflow from Hutus.

    Belgians after doing some scientific studies on both populations and find significant differences, they used it as a tool for ‘divide to rule’. And, it was very effective as we all know consequences of it.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Espoir For This Useful Post:

     Alfa (12-11-2019)

  8. #105
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,954
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post
    Playing devil's advocate here, what would be causing the stark discrepancy between dstats and nMonte for Natufian>Levant_Chl (poor coverage, deamination..) ?

     


    Ancient Pastorals:




    Modern Erythraeic groups, some shown with elevated ISR_Chl/IRN_N from more recent Semitic ancestry:



    There are a lot of issues here. The most important are these...

    - D-stats measure affinity via all drift paths, while the mixture models measure ancestry proportions and try to get the best fit possible with what they're given, so the two analyses are showing very different things

    - your models are very complex, with a lot of variables, and you're mixing modern and ancient populations, as well as ancient populations from very different periods, which runs a higher risk of producing invalid outcomes (put another way, the simpler your models, the more likely that they'll reach parity with formal stats)

    - only two Natufian samples made it into the Global25, and even these are low coverage sequences and possibly contaminated (both are listed as QUESTIONABLE_CRITICAL), so they're unlikely to ever produce accurate outcomes no matter what you do

    - D-stats aren't easy to interpret, especially when they involve unusual, low coverage samples from small, highly genetically drifted populations, so I wouldn't take Chad's computations too literally and assume that they must reflect the truth.

    In other words, we need more samples from North Africa and the Near East, covering all of the relevant periods, and the Natufian samples must be of a much higher quality than those currently available.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 12-11-2019 at 08:29 AM.

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Alfa (12-11-2019),  Angoliga (12-11-2019),  Megalophias (12-11-2019),  Ruderico (12-11-2019)

  10. #106
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,954
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    No. There is no West African or any other Sub-Saharan in Taforalt. The Iberomaurusian ancestry is already in the Dinka, Mota, Mende, and everyone else. I don't think you're understanding. When you say Dinka, there's already Iberomaurusian and Pastoralist ancestry in there. The use of modern Africans is diluting the true Eurasian input to these pastoralists.

    Natufians are not the ancestral source. They share no more drift with the Africans I am looking at than the Vietnam N samples. That means it was a much less basal, more northern source from groups like Levant ChL and Iran ChL. The majority of Eurasian ancestry for some groups is from Iberomaurusians. Others look like it is a pretty even split of Iberomaurusian and more late Levantine or Mesopotamian admixture.

    result: Chimp Mota IBM Natufian -0.001474 -3.234 22684 23402 486510
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Ganj_Dareh_N -0.000378 -1.078 49697 50071 988502
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Anatolia_HG -0.000304 -0.692 41286 41540 836680
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Ust_Ishim -0.002071 -4.533 52209 54371 1044311
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Tianyuan -0.002486 -5.315 39982 41980 804010
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Goyet -0.001538 -3.125 35474 36590 725529
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Kostenki14 -0.001820 -3.936 48710 50517 992857
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Villabruna -0.000813 -1.756 41135 41816 838627
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Vanuatu_2900BP -0.001467 -3.012 21877 22517 436217
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Vietnam_N -0.001519 -2.890 17223 17750 347076
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Yana -0.001526 -3.962 52003 53600 1046292
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Levant_ChL -0.000291 -0.937 48450 48739 991299
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Hajji_Firuz_LN -0.000289 -0.837 47744 48021 959074
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Iran_ChL 0.000235 0.672 47983 47757 960377
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Armenia_ChL 0.000119 0.349 48013 47897 967368
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Caucasus_Eneolithic -0.000437 -0.932 34604 34910 699708
    result: Chimp Mota IBM Iberia_EN 0.000072 0.219 47473 47403 969006
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Ganj_Dareh_N 0.000619 1.440 22991 22691 484540
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Anatolia_HG 0.000818 1.483 19342 18993 427259
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Ust_Ishim -0.000956 -1.782 23576 24045 490539
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Tianyuan -0.000751 -1.314 20046 20359 416875
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Goyet 0.000098 0.160 18424 18385 393932
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Kostenki14 -0.000100 -0.179 22191 22238 470924
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Villabruna 0.000661 1.188 20218 19929 437966
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Vanuatu_2900BP -0.000139 -0.218 13267 13305 278229
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Vietnam_N -0.000630 -0.927 10592 10733 223518
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Yana 0.000136 0.283 23476 23409 491499
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Levant_ChL 0.001008 2.615 21650 21161 485079
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Hajji_Firuz_LN 0.000997 2.266 22146 21669 478241
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Iran_ChL 0.001771 4.079 22249 21407 475161
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Armenia_ChL 0.001500 3.458 22027 21311 477374
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Caucasus_Eneolithic 0.001168 2.005 17932 17483 384815
    result: Chimp Mota Natufian Iberia_EN 0.001581 3.865 21551 20798 476200

    Even Iberian farmers share more drift with Mota than Natufians do. Explain that one if the source is not upper West Asian with less Natufian ancestry? It clearly isn't Natufians directly admixing into Africans here. Iberomaurusian-like, plus mixing from Chalcolithic West Asian is the only plausible deal here.
    These Natufian samples are obviously dodgy in some way.

    Either it's because they're low coverage and possibly also contaminated (the Harvard guys should try to restrict them to damaged sites to see what happens to these sorts of D-stats afterwards) and/or they're naturally dodgy due to some demographic factors.

    You gotta ask questions like this whenever you see D-stats that don't make much sense in the overall scheme of things.

  11. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (12-11-2019),  blackflash16 (12-11-2019),  Megalophias (12-11-2019),  palamede (12-11-2019),  R.Rocca (12-11-2019),  Ruderico (12-11-2019),  sum1 (12-11-2019)

  12. #107
    Registered Users
    Posts
    47
    Sex
    Omitted
    Ethnicity
    Somali
    mtDNA (M)
    L3i2

    Somalia
    Seems like they have some Ancient DNA in the areas that are of interest in regards Eurasian input into African populations.

    reihc.jpg

    When these samples are released, they should help us paint a better picture.

  13. #108
    Registered Users
    Posts
    33
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    The use of modern Africans is diluting the true Eurasian input to these pastoralists.

    Natufians are not the ancestral source. They share no more drift with the Africans I am looking at than the Vietnam N samples. That means it was a much less basal, more northern source from groups like Levant ChL and Iran ChL. The majority of Eurasian ancestry for some groups is from Iberomaurusians. Others look like it is a pretty even split of Iberomaurusian and more late Levantine or Mesopotamian admixture.

    Even Iberian farmers share more drift with Mota than Natufians do. Explain that one if the source is not upper West Asian with less Natufian ancestry? It clearly isn't Natufians directly admixing into Africans here. Iberomaurusian-like, plus mixing from Chalcolithic West Asian is the only plausible deal here.
    Sounds similar to what the recent paper on Ethiopia was saying:

    "the deeply divergent, autochthonous African component which accounts for ∼50% of most contemporary Ethiopian genomes, affects the overall allele frequency spectrum to an extent that makes it hard to control for it and, at once, to discern between subtly different, yet important, Eurasian sources (such as Anatolian or Levant Neolithic ones). Here we re-assess pattern of allele sharing between the Eurasian component of Ethiopians (here 13 called “NAF” for Non African) and ancient and modern proxies area after having extracted NAF from Ethiopians through ancestry deconvolution [...]

    A preliminary exploration of the NAF genomes through ADMIXTURE and projected PCA showed them to fall within the range of Eurasian populations, close to ancient populations with a high Anatolian Neolithic component (e.g. Anatolia_N and Minoans) [...]

    We further dissected the observed affinity between NAF and Anatolian Neolithic-like populations through a set of f4 tests aimed at refining through more and more stringent comparisons the best proxy population for the Eurasian layer. The whole-genomes, with both African and Non-African component, are significantly closer to a Levantine ancestry rather than Anatolian (Z-Score 2.98), with them being closer to Levant_ChL individuals than Levant_N. On the other hand, NAF is shown to be closer to a Neolithic ancestry from Anatolia rather than any Levantine one (Z-score -2.847) and, among Levantine populations, notably closer to Levantine Chalcolithic than to Bronze Age groups or contemporary Lebanese [...]

    the non African component of Ethiopian populations can be best modelled as a mixture of ∼85% Anatolian_N and ∼15% CHG composition of ancestries."


    'West Asian sources of the Eurasian component in Ethiopians: a reassessment' (Molinaro et al. 2019)
    Last edited by Philjames; 12-11-2019 at 03:51 PM.

  14. #109
    Registered Users
    Posts
    30
    Ethnicity
    Nyiginya Clan
    Nationality
    Rwanda
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M293
    mtDNA (M)
    L1

    Rwanda
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoliga View Post
    Do you have any kind of scientific ancestral reference for Hutu populations that would fit these scenarios?
    No, I don't have one, but I think someone posted 1 Hutu sample from Burundi. I was just guessing based on interramarriages that occurred in South of Rwanda regions after independance up to 1994. Nowadays, it still happening but it is rare due to distrust caused by the 1994 genocide.

  15. #110
    Registered Users
    Posts
    199
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    These Natufian samples are obviously dodgy in some way.

    Either it's because they're low coverage and possibly also contaminated (the Harvard guys should try to restrict them to damaged sites to see what happens to these sorts of D-stats afterwards) and/or they're naturally dodgy due to some demographic factors.

    You gotta ask questions like this whenever you see D-stats that don't make much sense in the overall scheme of things.

    What about the results Chad posted leads you to suspect that the Natufian samples used are dodgy? I know you say they're low coverage or possiblly contaminated but when you say we need to question D-Stat results when they "don't make much sense in the overall scheme of things," what exacty is the overall scheme of things that you think these results are contradicting? What kind of results would you expect to see and why?

    Would running those same stats but with Neolithic Levantine (who should basically be close enough to Natufians, and I think had higher coverage) samples instead give more reliable results in your opinion?
    Last edited by TuaMan; 12-11-2019 at 11:09 PM.

Page 11 of 12 FirstFirst ... 9101112 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-18-2019, 03:20 PM
  2. Map of the Spread of Cattle in North and Northeast Africa
    By Passa in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-30-2017, 12:44 PM
  3. Sub-Saharan African Admixture in North Africa
    By Logistics in forum Northern
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-11-2016, 08:45 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-21-2016, 05:48 PM
  5. Map of the spread of cattle in North Africa
    By Passa in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-15-2016, 04:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •