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Thread: Ancient DNA reveals a multistep spread of the first herders into sub-Saharan Africa

  1. #1

    Ancient DNA reveals a multistep spread of the first herders into sub-Saharan Africa

    Here's the greatly awaited holy grail on the ancient Erythrean/Cushitic nomads https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...lNeolithic.pdf

    Stunning to see the Elmentietan and Savanna Pastoral are one genetic cluster. Another blow to pots not people - as the Elmentietan vs Savanna Pastoral were never seriously considered to have the same Erythrean/Cushitic culture bearers, at least from a genetic point of view. One was always considered to the the classic "Hamitic" culture-bearers, the other as Nilotes or heavily "Hamiticized" Nilotes.

    But the cultural divergence may be due to minor Nilotic ancestry we don't see in Elmentietan. But thats quite difficult to parse as it stands, and this will need thorough analysis on our part here.

    Overall - the same phenomena we see in Europe with Anatolian farmers and the pulse of extra WHG ancestry with little more significant admixture events with WHG groups outside the Balkans (outside of incrementally increasing admixture), or with the Single-Grave/Corded Ware EN admixture pulse that remained somewhat unchanged as they encountered other farmer groups in Northern Europe with the exception of Southern Europe.

    It seems admixture here however was sex biased, as the vast majority of males were E-M35, specifically E-M239 with no B2 and other hunter gatherer ydna - except for the slightly probable HG but curious case of E2 in the 4000bp+ early Erythrean/Cushitic nomad who had lesser HG ancestry than the later Pastoral Neolithic horizon. Once a ecological barrier is reached to a specific degree somewhere in southern Somalia-Ethiopia and the Northern Frontier, we have the pulse(s) of hunter gatherer ancestry to the Erythrean/Cushitic nomads who this admixture likely correlates with a change in the general Erythrean/Cushitic pastoral variant toolkit (pre-PN).

    I wish they could have used Somalis instead of Bejas. It is quite clear they are the most pristine Erythrean/Cushitic population in existence, whereas the Beja are heavily admixed with presumably Late/Middle Kingdom Egyptian and Middle Eastern, in addition to minor Nilo-Saharan ancestry.

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  3. #2
    Interesting thing about the PN ydna is how it unexpectedly closely resembles that of Nilotes in regards to A-M13 and E-V22. I would say the orthodoxy was that E-V22 in Southeast Africa and South Sudan was from Nilotes than the PN, as it is present in the Dinka-Nuer, and especially in the more Nilotic Turkana at high frequencies.

    Yet here we have 2 2700-2300bp PN males with A-M13, and 2 other A-M13 from 2300 bp, with 2 E-V22s as well - all PN. I wonder if this is the Erythrean/Cushitic variant of A-M13 - A-Y23655. It would be wild if it is of Nilotic extraction and a symbol of Elmentietan S. Nilotic ancestry.

    Its also interesting to see ydna E-M35 in the Pastoral Iron Age sites, and amongst the East African HGs. I take it the previous earliest E-M35 sample on record in Africa south of the Sahara was the E-M239 male from Kenya who was predominantly either HG or Bantu ancestry.

    The early PN or pre-PN with E-M75 is a wild find if certain.

    But alas, still no T1a-L208, which is found throughout Southeast African Nilotes and Bantus - not to mention the Iraqw and other remnant South Erythreans/Cushitic peoples. It reaches as high as almost a quarter amongst some Bantus like the Rangi, and around 3-5% in Tanzania in general.

    It is also very intriguing to me how a stone-tool using Neolithic peoples (These Southeast African Erythreans/Cushitic peoples) on the retreat managed to incorporate their males successfully and rapidly into incoming full-fledged Iron Age Bantu and Nilotic peoples, in a almost sex-biased manner of Erythrean/Cushitic males marrying into and being incorporated into the far larger Bantu populations and Nilotes. The rarity of M and N and other typical Erythrean/Cushitic mtnda in Bantus especially, but the commonplace occurance of E-M35 and even T1a-L208 at times (as among the Rangi and Pare Bantus) makes little sense. Amongst like Masai, especially elite warrior caste clans like the Ilaikipiak, and other Maa Nilotes like the Samburu are both 66%+ E-M35, and even among the more Bantu and Nilotic Rift Valley Nilotes like the Markawet and Sabaot Kalenjin tribes are 39-40% E-M35 in a area from Uasin Gishu into eastern Uganda. And then you have groups with hardly any Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry like the Bantu Luhya, who are the 2nd largest ethnic group in Kenya and are 21% E-M35. Only the kikuyu are more balanced seeming - but this may be due to the massive assimilation of heavily Erythrean/Cushitic Ogiek, Dorobo, and other remnant hunter-gatherer in the Arusha and Mount Kenya and in the Rift Valley.

    A common origin motif amongst more northern Southeast African Bantus and even Nilotes - but especially Bantus - is the claim of Erythrean/Cushitic male founders and ancestors, as the Gikuyu and Mount Kenya Bantu claim to descend from the daughters of the farmland (Bantu womenfolk?) and males from Erythrean/Cushitic communities towards southern Somalia like the Rendille who then founded the clans of the Kikuyu Bantu and even Meru in some versions. We have recorded evidence of waves of Erythrean/Cushitic men being incorporated into the warlike plains Nilotic peoples, with Somali and Oromo males who shared the same age-set as these plains Nilotes were given the right (under female assent) to have sexual relations with the womenfolk of their plains Nilotes, with the children born from these relations being assimilated into the clan of their mothers lawful husband. Which is why we some some E-V32 in several highborn Masai and Samburu clans, and even in more inland Rift Nilotes like the Nandi and Pokot, and possibly even the E-V32 Luo men.

    But nonetheless, I am extremely puzzled by the low E-M35 in some Bantus like the Tutsi and Hema, 2 pastoralist groups with high Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry and cultural retention yet little E-M35. Even the much less admixed and more pristine Bantu groups of the region tend have higher levels of E-M35 then the Tutsi, with only the Hutu and Buganda having less, but groups like the Luhya, Sukuma, and Rangi all having significant to heavy E-M35. Perhaps incorporation of elite and preexisting Bantu elite lineages of later Tutsi and Hema dominated regions may have caused the dominant E-V38 in these groups despite the higher Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    Interesting thing about the PN ydna is how it unexpectedly closely resembles that of Nilotes in regards to A-M13 and E-V22. I would say the orthodoxy was that E-V22 in Southeast Africa and South Sudan was from Nilotes than the PN, as it is present in the Dinka-Nuer, and especially in the more Nilotic Turkana at high frequencies.

    Yet here we have 2 2700-2300bp PN males with A-M13, and 2 other A-M13 from 2300 bp, with 2 E-V22s as well - all PN. I wonder if this is the Erythrean/Cushitic variant of A-M13 - A-Y23655. It would be wild if it is of Nilotic extraction and a symbol of Elmentietan S. Nilotic ancestry.

    Its also interesting to see ydna E-M35 in the Pastoral Iron Age sites, and amongst the East African HGs. I take it the previous earliest E-M35 sample on record in Africa south of the Sahara was the E-M239 male from Kenya who was predominantly either HG or Bantu ancestry.

    The early PN or pre-PN with E-M75 is a wild find if certain.

    But alas, still no T1a-L208, which is found throughout Southeast African Nilotes and Bantus - not to mention the Iraqw and other remnant South Erythreans/Cushitic peoples. It reaches as high as almost a quarter amongst some Bantus like the Rangi, and around 3-5% in Tanzania in general.

    It is also very intriguing to me how a stone-tool using Neolithic peoples (These Southeast African Erythreans/Cushitic peoples) on the retreat managed to incorporate their males successfully and rapidly into incoming full-fledged Iron Age Bantu and Nilotic peoples, in a almost sex-biased manner of Erythrean/Cushitic males marrying into and being incorporated into the far larger Bantu populations and Nilotes. The rarity of M and N and other typical Erythrean/Cushitic mtnda in Bantus especially, but the commonplace occurance of E-M35 and even T1a-L208 at times (as among the Rangi and Pare Bantus) makes little sense. Amongst like Masai, especially elite warrior caste clans like the Ilaikipiak, and other Maa Nilotes like the Samburu are both 66%+ E-M35, and even among the more Bantu and Nilotic Rift Valley Nilotes like the Markawet and Sabaot Kalenjin tribes are 39-40% E-M35 in a area from Uasin Gishu into eastern Uganda. And then you have groups with hardly any Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry like the Bantu Luhya, who are the 2nd largest ethnic group in Kenya and are 21% E-M35. Only the kikuyu are more balanced seeming - but this may be due to the massive assimilation of heavily Erythrean/Cushitic Ogiek, Dorobo, and other remnant hunter-gatherer in the Arusha and Mount Kenya and in the Rift Valley.

    A common origin motif amongst more northern Southeast African Bantus and even Nilotes - but especially Bantus - is the claim of Erythrean/Cushitic male founders and ancestors, as the Gikuyu and Mount Kenya Bantu claim to descend from the daughters of the farmland (Bantu womenfolk?) and males from Erythrean/Cushitic communities towards southern Somalia like the Rendille who then founded the clans of the Kikuyu Bantu and even Meru in some versions. We have recorded evidence of waves of Erythrean/Cushitic men being incorporated into the warlike plains Nilotic peoples, with Somali and Oromo males who shared the same age-set as these plains Nilotes were given the right (under female assent) to have sexual relations with the womenfolk of their plains Nilotes, with the children born from these relations being assimilated into the clan of their mothers lawful husband. Which is why we some some E-V32 in several highborn Masai and Samburu clans, and even in more inland Rift Nilotes like the Nandi and Pokot, and possibly even the E-V32 Luo men.

    But nonetheless, I am extremely puzzled by the low E-M35 in some Bantus like the Tutsi and Hema, 2 pastoralist groups with high Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry and cultural retention yet little E-M35. Even the much less admixed and more pristine Bantu groups of the region tend have higher levels of E-M35 then the Tutsi, with only the Hutu and Buganda having less, but groups like the Luhya, Sukuma, and Rangi all having significant to heavy E-M35. Perhaps incorporation of elite and preexisting Bantu elite lineages of later Tutsi and Hema dominated regions may have caused the dominant E-V38 in these groups despite the higher Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry.
    Good catch my friend. Of all Bantu group I have seen from the great lakes region so far. Only Tutsis are showing exclusively E-M293 and A-M13. No E-M35, T or any other haplogroups associated N.E.Africa.Hutus in all studies alongside with other neighboring tribes don't show any E-M215. Don't know about A-M13, but from what I remember, haven't seen them having A-M13. If this holds , I will be convinced that we only descend from those early Northeast African Pastoralists and that maybe our ancestors moved in the great lakes region early on. In other words were not affected by the later Cushitic groups that came with E-M35.
    Last edited by Espoir; 06-13-2019 at 02:33 AM.

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  7. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    Good catch my friend. Of all Bantu group I have seen from the great lakes region so far. Only Tutsis are showing exclusively E-M293 and A-M13. No E-M35, T or any other haplogroups associated N.E.Africa.Hutus in all studies alongside with other neighboring tribes don't show any E-M215. Don't know about A-M13, but from what I remember, haven't seen them having A-M13. If this holds , I will be convinced that we only descend from those early Northeast African Pastoralists and that maybe our ancestors moved in the great lakes region early on. In other words were not affected by the later Cushitic groups that came with E-M35.
    I don't know if this interests you @Espoir, but I believe that the great height of the Tutsi is primarily due to South Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry, as those early pre-historic and historic Erythreans/Cushitic males buried in PN and derived and later intrusive Erytrhean/Cushitic sites in Southeast Africa averaged above 6ft in height, with 3 6'4'' (most likely) males, another 6'1'' (most likely) male, and a single 5'6'' individual. Remember it was these Erythrean/Cushitic people of historic Southeast Africa who were known to the Greco-Romans as the ancient Azanians, who were mentioned as piratical and living in coastal Southeast Africa (Azania) 2,000 years ago by the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - the author who also observed that these Azanians were of great stature and body size.

    As mentioned in the Periplus:

    . Two days' sail beyond, there lies the very last market-town of the continent of Azania, which is called Rhapta; which has its name from the sewed boats (rhapton ploiarion) already mentioned; in which there is ivory in great quantity, and tortoise-shell. Along this coast live men of piratical habits, very great in stature, and under separate chiefs for each place. The Mapharitic chief governs it under some ancient right that subjects it to the sovereignty of the state that is become first in Arabia. And the people of Muza now hold it under his authority, and send thither many large ships; using Arab captains and agents, who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language.

    And this observation of the great stature of the South Erythreans/Cushitic Azanians by the author of the Periplus is further confirmed by an archaeological recon by Dan Stiles of Erythrean/Cushitic gravesites in Kenya, where he measures the heights of several Erythrean/Cushitic burials from the earliest South Erythrean/Cushitic burials (buried even with the diagnostic stone bowls!), to later early Oromo/Oromic burials, to Samaalic sites, all in the Chalbi desert area of NW Kenya north of Lake Turkana, currently inhabited by the Samaalic but Oromo speaking Gabbra.

    Here he mentions the earliest sample, a South Erythrean/Cushitic individual buried with a stone bowl (fragment) in their typical PN cairns:

    The ~3,500 year old (~1500 B.C.) mound cairn was almost certainly made by Southern Cushitic speaking 'Stone Bowl' pastoralists. A stone bowl fragment was found buried at the base of the cairn, and obsidian stone tools and goat bones were found inside the cairn. The person buried inside measured 190cm tall (about 6'4"), an incredible height for someone of that antiquity.

    He later comments on a early Oromo/Oromic burial in the same region - very clearly intrusive from SW Ethiopia - the exact area of where the Genale river basin bordering Lake Stephanie is located, the very recent homeland of the Oromo prior to the Oromo migrations - and says this of the buried individual:

    The 1,010 year-old (~990 A.D.) platform cairn was probably made by a very early incursion of Oromo speakers, who today are the Boran and Gabbra. The only place I could find squarish stone graves reported in the literature was from southern Ethiopia, and none of these has been excavated. One of the two platforms I excavated contained a skeleton in good enough condition to measure. The individual was 185cm (6'1") tall, again well above the average height seen today in the area, or anywhere else, for that matter, 1,000 years ago.

    This early Oromo/early Oromic burial most likely had some degree of South Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry from the preceding PN folks - unless it was a recent early Oromo/Oromic immigrant straight out of the Galana Sagan-Dulei Oromic homeland. Also - the fact that this early Oromo/Oromic burial predates the Oromo migrations by 400 years supports that this person may have been apart of some other early Oromic group, such as the Burji, who live nearby.

    And the last samples measured were East Erythrean/Cushitic of Samaalic affiliation:

    The ring cairns are the most intriguing. While travelling over much of Marsabit District by land and air I came across hundreds of the large rings, invariably associated with mound cairns. They are usually found near present or former water sources. The heights of three of the ring cairn skeletons were 190cm (6'4") for two of them, and 167cm (5'6") for one.

    It seems the average height for the measured various historic and pre-historic Erythrean/Cushitic males of Kenya from the 3,500 year old early South Erythrean/Cushitic individual, the later 1,000 year old early Oromo/Oromic individual, and later Samaalic (likely Rendille/Sakuye) trio was in the 6ft range, with only 1 sample measured being below 6ft.

    3 Erythrean/Cushitic individuals (1 South Erythrean/Cushitic, 2 Samaalic) were 6'4'', 1 - the early Oromo/Oromic individual - was 6'1'', and the only under 6ft sample being a single Samaalic individual measured at 5'6''. The dataset is very small, but the fact that more than half of all samples were 6'4'' is extraordinary, seeing as they all predate the modern age. Once consider the fact that less than 5% of US men are 6'3'' or taller, and somewhere around 1% being 6'4'' or taller, it is very clear we are dealng with a tall statured peoples whose avereage height was somewhere north of 5'10 most likely - taller than the average height for the trans-Juba Somali males in the late 1800's (who were measured 5'9-10'').
    Last edited by VytautusofAukstaitija; 06-13-2019 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #5
    Also, E-M293 is a E-M35 lineage. I think you mean E-M78, as my former statement here:

    But nonetheless, I am extremely puzzled by the low E-M35 in some Bantus like the Tutsi and Hema, 2 pastoralist groups with high Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry and cultural retention yet little E-M35. Even the much less admixed and more pristine Bantu groups of the region tend have higher levels of E-M35 then the Tutsi, with only the Hutu and Buganda having less, but groups like the Luhya, Sukuma, and Rangi all having significant to heavy E-M35. Perhaps incorporation of elite and preexisting Bantu elite lineages of later Tutsi and Hema dominated regions may have caused the dominant E-V38 in these groups despite the higher Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry.


    Was prior to seeing your collected data on the Great Lakes pastoralists folks ydna on 23andme. It seems the dominant ydna, making up around half of Great Lakes pastoralist ydna is now E-M35 (up from the very small to non-existent E-M35 previously reported for Tutsis), and the rest A3b2, E2, and E-V38. With around three quarters being E-M35, A3b2, and E2, all ydna seen in the PN/ELM males.

    Seems tables have reversed, and earlier studies I was looking at had something wrong with their samples, probably either due to a clan-based founder effect for the Tutsi samples they have, or the sensitivity in the relations between Hutu/Tutsi and Great Lakes pastoralist peoples and the agricultural folks in general regarding race/phenotypic, socio-political, and ethno-linguistic differences, and the Kagame governments repression of any talk of a separate Tutsi and Hutu ethnicity and any biological differences between the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    I don't know if this interests you @Espoir, but I believe that the great height of the Tutsi is primarily due to South Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry, as those early pre-historic and historic Erythreans/Cushitic males buried in PN and derived and later intrusive Erytrhean/Cushitic sites in Southeast Africa averaged above 6ft in height, with 3 6'4'' (most likely) males, another 6'1'' (most likely) male, and a single 5'6'' individual. Remember it was these Erythrean/Cushitic people of historic Southeast Africa who were known to the Greco-Romans as the ancient Azanians, who were mentioned as piratical and living in coastal Southeast Africa (Azania) 2,000 years ago by the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - the author who also observed that these Azanians were of great stature and body size.

    As mentioned in the Periplus:

    . Two days' sail beyond, there lies the very last market-town of the continent of Azania, which is called Rhapta; which has its name from the sewed boats (rhapton ploiarion) already mentioned; in which there is ivory in great quantity, and tortoise-shell. Along this coast live men of piratical habits, very great in stature, and under separate chiefs for each place. The Mapharitic chief governs it under some ancient right that subjects it to the sovereignty of the state that is become first in Arabia. And the people of Muza now hold it under his authority, and send thither many large ships; using Arab captains and agents, who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language.

    And this observation of the great stature of the South Erythreans/Cushitic Azanians by the author of the Periplus is further confirmed by an archaeological recon by Dan Stiles of Erythrean/Cushitic gravesites in Kenya, where he measures the heights of several Erythrean/Cushitic burials from the earliest South Erythrean/Cushitic burials (buried even with the diagnostic stone bowls!), to later early Oromo/Oromic burials, to Samaalic sites, all in the Chalbi desert area of NW Kenya north of Lake Turkana, currently inhabited by the Samaalic but Oromo speaking Gabbra.

    Here he mentions the earliest sample, a South Erythrean/Cushitic individual buried with a stone bowl (fragment) in their typical PN cairns:

    The ~3,500 year old (~1500 B.C.) mound cairn was almost certainly made by Southern Cushitic speaking 'Stone Bowl' pastoralists. A stone bowl fragment was found buried at the base of the cairn, and obsidian stone tools and goat bones were found inside the cairn. The person buried inside measured 190cm tall (about 6'4"), an incredible height for someone of that antiquity.

    He later comments on a early Oromo/Oromic burial in the same region - very clearly intrusive from SW Ethiopia - the exact area of where the Genale river basin bordering Lake Stephanie is located, the very recent homeland of the Oromo prior to the Oromo migrations - and says this of the buried individual:

    The 1,010 year-old (~990 A.D.) platform cairn was probably made by a very early incursion of Oromo speakers, who today are the Boran and Gabbra. The only place I could find squarish stone graves reported in the literature was from southern Ethiopia, and none of these has been excavated. One of the two platforms I excavated contained a skeleton in good enough condition to measure. The individual was 185cm (6'1") tall, again well above the average height seen today in the area, or anywhere else, for that matter, 1,000 years ago.

    This early Oromo/early Oromic burial most likely had some degree of South Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry from the preceding PN folks - unless it was a recent early Oromo/Oromic immigrant straight out of the Galana Sagan-Dulei Oromic homeland. Also - the fact that this early Oromo/Oromic burial predates the Oromo migrations by 400 years supports that this person may have been apart of some other early Oromic group, such as the Burji, who live nearby.

    And the last samples measured were East Erythrean/Cushitic of Samaalic affiliation:

    The ring cairns are the most intriguing. While travelling over much of Marsabit District by land and air I came across hundreds of the large rings, invariably associated with mound cairns. They are usually found near present or former water sources. The heights of three of the ring cairn skeletons were 190cm (6'4") for two of them, and 167cm (5'6") for one.

    It seems the average height for the measured various historic and pre-historic Erythrean/Cushitic males of Kenya from the 3,500 year old early South Erythrean/Cushitic individual, the later 1,000 year old early Oromo/Oromic individual, and later Samaalic (likely Rendille/Sakuye) trio was in the 6ft range, with only 1 sample measured being below 6ft.

    3 Erythrean/Cushitic individuals (1 South Erythrean/Cushitic, 2 Samaalic) were 6'4'', 1 - the early Oromo/Oromic individual - was 6'1'', and the only under 6ft sample being a single Samaalic individual measured at 5'6''. The dataset is very small, but the fact that more than half of all samples were 6'4'' is extraordinary, seeing as they all predate the modern age. Once consider the fact that less than 5% of US men are 6'3'' or taller, and somewhere around 1% being 6'4'' or taller, it is very clear we are dealng with a tall statured peoples whose avereage height was somewhere north of 5'10 most likely - taller than the average height for the trans-Juba Somali males in the late 1800's (who were measured 5'9-10'').
    Very much interested. I knew very little about this, only one of those individuals mentioned.
    U know, I'm 5'10, and in Banyamulenge, I'm below average. It's funny, cause, as soon as I live our community, that's when I hear people identify me as "tall guy". This is the opposite of what I get in our community. I'm short. Indeed, these SPN people are very interesting in many aspects. Hiernaux also did a good job on this subject.
    Tutsi of Rwanda:



    Stature: 176 cm
    Head length: 198 mm
    Head breadth: 147 mm
    Face height: 125 mm
    Face breadth: 134 mm
    Nose height: 56 mm
    Nose breadth: 39 mm
    Relative trunk length: 49.7
    Cephalic Index: 74.5
    Facial Index: 92.8
    Nasal Index: 69.5

    Masai:



    Stature: 173 cm
    Head length: 194 mm
    Head Breadth: 140 mm
    Face Height: 121 mm
    Face Breadth: 137 mm
    Nose Height: 54 mm
    Nose Breadth: 39 mm
    Relative Trunk length: 47.7
    Cephalic Index: 72.8
    Facial Index: 89.0
    Nasal Index: 72.0

    Galla(Oromo):



    Stature: 171 cm
    Head length: 190 mm
    Head Breadth: 147 mm
    Face Height: 122 mm
    Face Breadth: 133 mm
    Nose Height: 53 mm
    Nose Breadth: 37 mm
    Relative Trunk length: 50.3
    Cephalic Index: 77.6
    Facial Index: 91.5
    Nasal Index: 69.0
    Sab Somali:



    Stature: 173 cm
    Head length: 194 mm
    Head Breadth: 145 mm
    Face Height: 119 mm
    Face Breadth: 134 mm
    Nose Height: 49 mm
    Nose Breadth: 36 mm
    Relative Trunk length: 49.7
    Cephalic Index: 74.7
    Facial Index: 88.5
    Nasal Index: 72.8
    Warsingali Somali:



    Stature: 168 cm
    Head length: 192 mm
    Head Breadth: 143 mm
    Face Height: 123 mm
    Face Breadth: 131 mm
    Nose Height: 52 mm
    Nose Breadth: 34 mm
    Relative Trunk length: 50.7
    Cephalic Index: 74.5
    Facial Index: 94.1
    Nasal Index: 66.0

    Source:

    Jean Hiernaux

    The People of Africa

    pg 142

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    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    Also, E-M293 is a E-M35 lineage. I think you mean E-M78, as my former statement here:

    But nonetheless, I am extremely puzzled by the low E-M35 in some Bantus like the Tutsi and Hema, 2 pastoralist groups with high Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry and cultural retention yet little E-M35. Even the much less admixed and more pristine Bantu groups of the region tend have higher levels of E-M35 then the Tutsi, with only the Hutu and Buganda having less, but groups like the Luhya, Sukuma, and Rangi all having significant to heavy E-M35. Perhaps incorporation of elite and preexisting Bantu elite lineages of later Tutsi and Hema dominated regions may have caused the dominant E-V38 in these groups despite the higher Erythrean/Cushitic ancestry.


    Was prior to seeing your collected data on the Great Lakes pastoralists folks ydna on 23andme. It seems the dominant ydna, making up around half of Great Lakes pastoralist ydna is now E-M35 (up from the very small to non-existent E-M35 previously reported for Tutsis), and the rest A3b2, E2, and E-V38. With around three quarters being E-M35, A3b2, and E2, all ydna seen in the PN/ELM males.

    Seems tables have reversed, and earlier studies I was looking at had something wrong with their samples, probably either due to a clan-based founder effect for the Tutsi samples they have, or the sensitivity in the relations between Hutu/Tutsi and Great Lakes pastoralist peoples and the agricultural folks in general regarding race/phenotypic, socio-political, and ethno-linguistic differences, and the Kagame governments repression of any talk of a separate Tutsi and Hutu ethnicity and any biological differences between the two.
    My bad, I meant E-V68(specifically E-M78) in general lacking in sampled we have so far.

    The 2004 study, I don't know if I'm gonna trust it. Honestly, unless I get autosomal and maternal DNA of those 96 sampled Tutsis, otherwise I'm not taking it seriously. It must have been altered. It would be very interesting if we had maternal and autosomal DNA of both Hutus and Tutsis in that study.
    In general, all studies on Tutsis, don't know what's wrong with them, never believed them even before I took the test myself.

    About clans, what we are seeing is variation in the same clan. No clan, from sampled individuals so far, has been homogeneous. Which makes complete sense, since, clans welcomed outsiders. People would join a clan and be part of it. One clan is having E-M293, A-M13, E-M75 and E-M2 at the same time.

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