Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Genetics of the Western French coast

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,107
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union

    Genetics of the Western French coast

    Along the coastline strip of land shorter than e.g. distance from Cracow to Lublin in Poland (less than 200 km), there is a big difference in genetics:

    1. French person from Charente-Maritime (although more distant ancestors could be from Aquitaine), most similar to Basques and South Europe:



    2. French person from Pays Nantais (Loire-Atlantique) - Armorican lands before Roman conquest - most similar to Bretons, Armoricans and Brits:



    ^^^ You can compare to the distribution of tribes in Pre-Roman Western Europe:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/com...es_of_western/

    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-04-2019 at 04:04 AM.

  2. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     alexfritz (06-04-2019),  Bealfire (06-04-2019),  Camulogène Rix (06-11-2019),  cercle (06-04-2019),  galon07 (06-18-2019),  JMcB (06-04-2019),  JonikW (06-04-2019),  NixYO (06-04-2019),  palamede (06-10-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (06-04-2019),  spruithean (06-04-2019),  timberwolf (06-04-2019),  Trelvern (06-04-2019)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,107
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    And their results in K15 mapping: https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    Pays Nantais sample:

    Abscisse (x-axis): 274 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 172 pixel

    Charentes-Maritime:

    Abscisse (x-axis): 144 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 201 pixel


  4. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (06-05-2019),  NixYO (06-04-2019),  palamede (06-10-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (06-04-2019),  Trelvern (06-04-2019)

  5. #3
    Junior Member
    Posts
    6
    Sex

    Not surprising it's gascon territory


  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bealfire For This Useful Post:

     palamede (06-10-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  Tomenable (06-04-2019)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,114
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Nationality
    French
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-U106>DF98>BY650

    France Bretagne Trégor France Bretagne Kroaz Du
    Quote Originally Posted by Bealfire View Post
    Not surprising it's gascon territory


    Charente maritime a gascon territory?
    Not really
    Square 2 is centered on the "Bordelais" and Landes

    Département_17.png
    Last edited by Trelvern; 06-04-2019 at 05:06 AM.

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Trelvern For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-04-2019),  NixYO (06-04-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  Ruderico (06-04-2019),  Tomenable (06-04-2019)

  9. #5
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,604
    Sex
    Location
    Viseu
    Ethnicity
    Romanised Paesuri
    Nationality
    Portuguese
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (H20c?)
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y168273

    Asturias Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ
    I'd rather see more than just one sample per location before making conclusions, even if this isn't really too surprising. And I'd use K13 or K15 (and not that PCA jpg which is terrible nowadays) instead of K36
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y168273 (probably Scythian-Sarmatian). Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-04-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (06-04-2019),  spruithean (06-13-2019)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,107
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I'd rather see more than just one sample per location before making conclusions
    That Pays Nantais sample is an academic sample from an official study.

    But there is only one from this region in the whole dataset (30 samples from all over Northern France). I have more samples from Brittany and from Aquitaine - I can tell you that other Brittany samples are similar to this Pays Nantais and other Aquitaine samples are similar to this Charente-Maritime.

    I chose those two because they represent the southernmost and northernmost examples of their respective clusters (Armorican/Breton and Aquitanian).

    There is a genetically intermediate zone too (most of Pays de la Loire and Poitou-Charentes are intermediate, West-Central).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I'd use K13 or K15
    Here are their K15 results:

    Population
    North_Sea 35.29 Pct
    Atlantic 26.65 Pct
    Baltic 9.89 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 7.08 Pct
    West_Med 10.07 Pct
    West_Asian 3.47 Pct
    East_Med 5.65 Pct
    Red_Sea -
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.48 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.74 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.53 Pct

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Southwest_English 4.19
    (...)

    Population
    North_Sea 19.07 Pct
    Atlantic 45.26 Pct
    Baltic 5.95 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 1.10 Pct
    West_Med 22.76 Pct
    West_Asian -
    East_Med 3.20 Pct
    Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.37 Pct
    Oceanian 0.15 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Sub-Saharan 0.24 Pct

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French_Basque 3.64
    (...)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-04-2019 at 01:37 PM.

  12. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-04-2019),  moesan (06-11-2019),  NixYO (06-04-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  Ruderico (06-04-2019)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,114
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Nationality
    French
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-U106>DF98>BY650

    France Bretagne Trégor France Bretagne Kroaz Du
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That Pays Nantais sample is an academic sample from an official study.

    But there is only one from this region in the whole dataset (30 samples from all over Northern France). I have more samples from Brittany and from Aquitaine - I can tell you that other Brittany samples are similar to this Pays Nantais and other Aquitaine samples are similar to this Charente-Maritime.

    I chose those two because they represent the southernmost and northernmost examples of their respective clusters (Armorican/Breton and Aquitanian).

    There is a genetically intermediate zone as well (most of Pays de la Loire and Poitou-Charentes are intermediate).



    Here are their K15 results:

    Population
    North_Sea 35.29 Pct
    Atlantic 26.65 Pct
    Baltic 9.89 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 7.08 Pct
    West_Med 10.07 Pct
    West_Asian 3.47 Pct
    East_Med 5.65 Pct
    Red_Sea -
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.48 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.74 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.53 Pct

    Population
    North_Sea 19.07 Pct
    Atlantic 45.26 Pct
    Baltic 5.95 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 1.10 Pct
    West_Med 22.76 Pct
    West_Asian -
    East_Med 3.20 Pct
    Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.37 Pct
    Oceanian 0.15 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Sub-Saharan 0.24 Pct

    This academic study?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2014175ejhg2014175f1.jpg
    ejhg2014175f3.jpg


    "Performing a clustering analysis with admixture at both K=2 and K=3, we found that the admixture coefficients were correlated with geography (P<10−16 when regressing admixture coefficients with latitude and longitude). With K=2, admixture separated some of the Bretons from the rest of the sample (Supplementary Figure 2), and this cluster was again found with K=3 (green cluster in Figure 1). When averaging the ancestry of individuals within each department, we found that the ancestry component corresponding to the Bretons (green cluster) was larger in the three departments at the western end of Brittany (Finistère, Côtes d’Armor, Morbihan, see Supplementary Figure 3). With K=3, the ancestry of some individuals, many of them coming from the Vendée Department and from the south of the Maine-et-Loire department, differed from the rest of the sample (the blue cluster in Figure 1, see also Supplementary Figure 3)."
    Last edited by Trelvern; 06-04-2019 at 01:42 PM.

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Trelvern For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-04-2019),  palamede (06-10-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  Ruderico (06-04-2019),  Tomenable (06-04-2019)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,107
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union
    No it is from Lazaridis 2016, "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East".

    This sample: French24061 Loire-Atlantique France Latitude/Longitude: 47.34281747, -1.66718251
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-04-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     fabrice E (06-05-2019),  JMcB (06-04-2019),  Power77 (06-04-2019),  Trelvern (06-04-2019)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    246
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Ethnicity
    more "celtic"
    Nationality
    french (for the State)
    mtDNA (M)
    H3c
    Y-DNA (P)
    Y-R1b-L21/S145 *conf

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That Pays Nantais sample is an academic sample from an official study.

    But there is only one from this region in the whole dataset (30 samples from all over Northern France). I have more samples from Brittany and from Aquitaine - I can tell you that other Brittany samples are similar to this Pays Nantais and other Aquitaine samples are similar to this Charente-Maritime.

    I chose those two because they represent the southernmost and northernmost examples of their respective clusters (Armorican/Breton and Aquitanian).

    There is a genetically intermediate zone too (most of Pays de la Loire and Poitou-Charentes are intermediate, West-Central).



    Here are their K15 results:

    Population
    North_Sea 35.29 Pct
    Atlantic 26.65 Pct
    Baltic 9.89 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 7.08 Pct
    West_Med 10.07 Pct
    West_Asian 3.47 Pct
    East_Med 5.65 Pct
    Red_Sea -
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.48 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.74 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.53 Pct

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Southwest_English 4.19
    (...)

    Population
    North_Sea 19.07 Pct
    Atlantic 45.26 Pct
    Baltic 5.95 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 1.10 Pct
    West_Med 22.76 Pct
    West_Asian -
    East_Med 3.20 Pct
    Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.37 Pct
    Oceanian 0.15 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Sub-Saharan 0.24 Pct

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French_Basque 3.64
    (...)
    Charentes-Maritimes were speaking a Poitevin dialect of West-France, with specificities - but it is believed they spoke before dialects closer to Occitanie ones - that said:
    1- Poitou has been part of Great Aquitaine in Middle-Ages times.
    2- Southern and Eastern Poitou phenotipically presented more mesocephalic less brachycephalic people than even North Gascon people, and in their mix showed a stronger 'mediter' (roughly said) input.
    3- Brachycephally augmented quickly during IA in Western France, surely based on Jura or Alps pops moves of Celticized pops under some Celts tribes pression; here the concerned Poitevins seem having resisted to this push more than neighbouring regions.
    4- Spite lacking some dialectal innovations common to peri-Basque regions and Gascogne, the southern Poitevin dialect show a trend towards spiration of French /sh/ -> a sound between /sh/ and /kh/ + of /zh/ -> /h/, shortly said a trend close to the evolution occurred in North-Castile/Basque country - without contacts! But I think some articulatory habits can survive a long time among populations.
    Have we here a long term survivance of common genetic heritage (even if not 100%?)

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to moesan For This Useful Post:

     NixYO (06-13-2019),  Tomenable (06-11-2019)

Similar Threads

  1. The Swahili people of the east coast of africa
    By SWAHILLI_PRINCE16 in forum Eastern
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-28-2019, 09:01 PM
  2. Bronze Age Shipwreck Discovered Off The Coast Of Turkey
    By Webb in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-20-2019, 04:53 PM
  3. German WW1 U-boat found off Belgian coast
    By Nas in forum History (Modern)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-05-2018, 08:55 AM
  4. Baltic Coast 500AD
    By Brent.B in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-18-2017, 01:49 AM
  5. aDNA from the south coast of England
    By J1 DYS388=13 in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-18-2017, 03:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •