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Thread: "Cimmerians and Scythians Reconsidered"

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    "Cimmerians and Scythians Reconsidered"

    An interesting article in ancientworldmagazine.com pertaining to the identity and migration route taken by both the Cimmerians and Scythians into West Asia. The author re-assesses the material evidence and the historical record concerning these groups.

    Back in 2010-13, I entertained the idea that the Cimmerians were an obscure IE-speaking population that weren't Indo-Iranian, on the basis of the identification of the "Thraco-Cimmerian" archaeological culture that occupied the northern Black Sea shore and the Danube area. However, one of the given names of the Cimmerians (Sandaxshatra) is as quintessentially Indo-Iranian as most of those observed in the Avesta (e.g. Zarathustra), so an Indo-Iranian identity simply has to be considered.

    One pitfall I'd previously fallen into pertained to the validity of the "Thraco-Cimmerian" culture - It's evidently considered as a misnomer in archaeological circles, and one which is persistently used regardless (akin to the use of "Tocharian" for the Centum IE languages of the Tarim). This article neatly explains it.

    Am I convinced by the author's proposal? Yes. Worth a read IMO.

    Link to full article

    Last edited by DMXX; 06-05-2019 at 02:37 PM. Reason: typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    An interesting article in ancientworldmagazine.com pertaining to the identity and migration route taken by both the Cimmerians and Scythians into West Asia. The author re-assesses the material evidence and the historical record concerning these groups.

    Back in 2010-13, I entertained the idea that the Cimmerians were an obscure IE-speaking population that weren't Indo-Iranian, on the basis of the identification of the "Thraco-Cimmerian" archaeological culture that occupied the northern Black Sea shore and the Danube area. However, one of the given names of the Cimmerians (Sandaxshatra) is as quintessentially Indo-Iranian as most of those observed in the Avesta (e.g. Zarathustra), so an Indo-Iranian identity simply has to be considered.

    One pitfall I'd previously fallen into pertained to the validity of the "Thraco-Cimmerian" culture - It's evidently considered as a misnomer in archaeological circles, and one which is persistently used regardless (akin to the use of "Tocharian" for the Centum IE languages of the Tarim). This article neatly explains it.

    Am I convinced by the author's proposal? Yes. Worth a read IMO.

    Link to full article

    Do you know the relationship between persian and cimmerian?
    Someone said that the first known Persian king with the title of khshatra "shah, king" is actually the Cimmerian king Sandakhshatra who ruled in modern Turkey.





    Darius helmet and scythian:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....troglyph/page2 (post 16)

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    Cimmerians also carried Scythian-like y-dna like Q and R1a-Z93 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...z92mo/htmlview). All tested Cimmerians had Siberian admixture too. It very much looks like they are part of the same phenomeon like Scythians. I am wondering who populated the Pontic-Caspian steppe prior to Cimmerians. Are there any historical sources about potential pre-Cimmerian people in the Pontic-Caspian steppe?
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-05-2019 at 04:39 PM.

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    could Thraco-cimmerian have a contact zone on the Black Sea from resident Dacians and Getae mingling with the incoming Cimmerian from the east (Ural region) Pre Cimmerian peoples Taurii?
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Do you know the relationship between persian and cimmerian?
    Someone said that the first known Persian king with the title of khshatra "shah, king" is actually the Cimmerian king Sandakhshatra who ruled in modern Turkey.


    persian:

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...-solved-001778

    scythian:

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com...CScythians.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Someone said that the first known Persian king with the title of khshatra "shah, king" is actually the Cimmerian king Sandakhshatra who ruled in modern Turkey.
    This is incorrect.

    The term "xshathra" appears multiple times in the Avesta, with several similar meanings (rule, ruler, king, dominion). A cognate ("ksatra") also appears in the Rig Veda.

    Given this term is used numerous times in the common early Indo-Iranian dialect (Old Avestan and Old Sanskrit), Occam's Razor would lead us to safely assume the original Persians inherited the term from their proto-West Iranic-speaking ancestors, rather than the Cimmerian invaders.

    The Old Persian term for "king" is "xshayathya", which deviates from the Cimmerian-Avestan clade (based on this single word, at least).

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    Did not the october 2018 paper.....ancient genomes suggest the eastern pontic-caspian steppe etc by maja krzewinska say that cimmerians ranged from north caucasus to eastern alps before sarmatians or scythians arrived on the steppe


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    What about the Srubna (Timber-grave) culture, maybe the Cimmerians came from there maybe Herodotus is not entirely wrong (Srubna found Z93)
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