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Thread: On Ancient Egyptian DNA.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    Somewhat surprising. I was expecting common North African haplotypes like U6 or M1.
    There are two more mummies from the 12th dynasty were apparently half-brothers and shared mtDNA M1a1:

    The kinship of two 12th Dynasty mummies revealed by ancient DNA sequencing

    Nothing on their Y-DNA or autosomal affinities yet though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him cluster with Copts, but I'm keeping an open mind. What I want to know is if the relationship between Egypt and its southern neighbors was clinal (as I would personally expect) or if we get something more like what we see in the Caucasus with strong differentiation between Maykop and steppe populations north of the mountains. But as far as I know there's no such barrier to gene flow along the Nile so a strong boundary is unlikely. If Nubians were already Beja-like in prehistoric and dynastic times it would be hard for me to believe that contemporaneous Upper Egyptians had only marginal SSA ancestry. We'll see.
    The first cataract was a natural barrier between ancient Egypt and Nubia. Considering the genetic affinities of Copts (who are mostly from Upper/Middle Egypt from what I understand), and the Middle Egyptian ancient DNA from Abusir, differences between ancient Egyptians and Nubians may have been fairly significant. Seems like we'll have some ancient DNA to answer these questions in the near future.

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    Even a decent paper on Modern Egypt would be welcome. A nome by nome analysis of modern individuals with attested local ancestry (from all grandparents) would be a treasure-trove (especially for uniparentals). Considering that CHG/Iran_N ancestry in Copts/abusir would be mediated by populations which are predominantly Anatolia_N(in the case of CHG) or Levant_N(in the case of Iran_N), shouldn't we expect significant West-Eurasian admixture at some point, likely post-dating the Protodynastic period?

    One thing that has stood out so far is the relatively low frequencies of M1a, N1 and R0a (M1a especially) among both modern Copts and the Abusir mummies compared to the modern populations in the Horn, Sahel and the Rift-valley. Maybe movement of Asiatic women in to the nile could explain part of it:
    The finding of predominantly non-local women among elite burials (according to strontium isotope ratios) at Tell el-Dab’a (21 of 27 samples)

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackflash16 View Post
    Even a decent paper on Modern Egypt would be welcome. A nome by nome analysis of modern individuals with attested local ancestry (from all grandparents) would be a treasure-trove (especially for uniparentals). Considering that CHG/Iran_N ancestry in Copts/abusir would be mediated by populations which are predominantly Anatolia_N(in the case of CHG) or Levant_N(in the case of Iran_N), shouldn't we expect significant West-Eurasian admixture at some point, likely post-dating the Protodynastic period?

    One thing that has stood out so far is the relatively low frequencies of M1a, N1 and R0a (M1a especially) among both modern Copts and the Abusir mummies compared to the modern populations in the Horn, Sahel and the Rift-valley. Maybe movement of Asiatic women in to the nile could explain part of it:
    The finding of predominantly non-local women among elite burials (according to strontium isotope ratios) at Tell el-Dab’a (21 of 27 samples)
    The Middle Kingdom U5b2b5 has is closest relative in Lebanon. Couldn't R0a simply be Arab?

    EDIT: Hmmm. That would require Arab - i.e Muslim - women marrying Christian Copts. Not too sure that would be a feasible route.
    Last edited by epoch; 06-12-2019 at 07:04 PM.

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackflash16 View Post
    Even a decent paper on Modern Egypt would be welcome. A nome by nome analysis of modern individuals with attested local ancestry (from all grandparents) would be a treasure-trove (especially for uniparentals). Considering that CHG/Iran_N ancestry in Copts/abusir would be mediated by populations which are predominantly Anatolia_N(in the case of CHG) or Levant_N(in the case of Iran_N), shouldn't we expect significant West-Eurasian admixture at some point, likely post-dating the Protodynastic period?

    One thing that has stood out so far is the relatively low frequencies of M1a, N1 and R0a (M1a especially) among both modern Copts and the Abusir mummies compared to the modern populations in the Horn, Sahel and the Rift-valley. Maybe movement of Asiatic women in to the nile could explain part of it:
    The finding of predominantly non-local women among elite burials (according to strontium isotope ratios) at Tell el-Dab’a (21 of 27 samples)
    There's much to bet that the introduction of Iran_ChL-type ancestry will correlate with the arrival of early NW Semitic migrants (AKA "Asiatics"/Aamu) in the Nile Valley starting from the last phases of the Old Kingdom and the 1st Intermediate Period. The 15th dynasty (the Hyksos dynasty) was just the political climax in the history of migration from the east. As a matter of fact, Tell eḍ-Ḍabʿa (Avaris) looks like a large Amorite settlement and exhibits the hallmarks of the Amorite cultural assemblage tied to the MB IIA-B/C transition in the Fertile Crescent (this counts for a cluster of smaller settlements in the Dakahlia Governorate), here's a map of sites where this cultural assemblage is found:

     


    So the Hyksos sites are comparatively late and can be accurately labeled "Amorite". In comparison, the earliest "Asiatic"/NW Semitic pharaoh we know of is Khendjer, a 13th Dynasty king who ruled during the 18th century BCE (at least a hundred years before the 2nd Intermediate Period), in turn the 14th Dynasty had many pharaohs who bore early NW Semitic names. There is also a text (Brooklyn Papyrus 35.1446) dated between the late 19th and the first half of the 18th centuries BCE which lists some 95 slaves on the verso, at least 45 of whom had typically NW Semitic names with very close parallels in Ugaritic, Old Byblian and Classical Hebrew. All of this indicates that the "Asiatics" already were well-established demographically by the Middle Kingdom, and were found in all layers of Egyptian society (from the lowest slave to the pharaoh). What this means IMO is that the earliest phase of "Asiatic" settlement probably dates back to the end of the Old Kingdom (possibly predating the 1st Intermediate Period to some extent).

    Prior to this period, we should expect Iran_Chl-type ancestry to be absent, if it is not found in trace amounts. Levant_N admixture is a separate issue, it probably has a far older presence in Lower Egypt.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The Middle Kingdom U5b2b5 has is closest relative in Lebanon. Couldn't R0a simply be Arab?

    EDIT: Hmmm. That would require Arab - i.e Muslim - women marrying Christian Copts. Not too sure that would be a feasible route.
    Unlikely but not impossible, I have seen some Copts who do have typically Arabian uniparental lineages.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-12-2019 at 07:33 PM.
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    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


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    All in all, can we be sure that the mummy in the past study and upcoming run is a strictly non-mixed with foreigner Egyptian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adules View Post
    All in all, can we be sure that the mummy in the past study and upcoming run is a strictly non-mixed with foreigner Egyptian?
    Finding a slightly surprising haplogroup result doesn't give much reason to believe they were recently admixed. It doesn't mean they aren't, only that there's no good evidence to suggest it that i'm aware of.

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    The mummy would be indigenous more than not then? And be a good representative of at least royalty from 2000 B.C. and earlier?

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    Let's hope it won't be some low coverage data.

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    How many samples do you think the Harvard lab could have access to by now?

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