Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 25 of 25

Thread: Is it possible to talk about the origin of Etruscans in this forum?

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    136
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Bos primigenius taurus

    Quote Originally Posted by vittoria View Post
    This is obviously showing that before the 8th century BC(since the late Bronze Age), Indo-European(Italic) speaking people were settled in Latium under the Villanovan archaeological culture.
    And then suddenly within the 8th century BC, Near Eastern Etruscan speaking immigrants came into the region of Latium. They became the elites of Latium, they changed the culture of the region into a Near Eastern Etruscan style. But they were only the minority elites of the region. And within the following centuries, some of the Italic speaking locals became assimilated by the minority of Etruscans, and the same happened vice versa.

    I repeat. No serious archaeologist now believes that there was a migration in the eighth century that imposed a foreign language on the Etruscans. Especially by small groups of Near Eastern migrants of unknown origin who have no archaeological record and who are linked to the Orientalizing period that you still do not understand what it is. Etruscan Orientalizing style has nothing to do with the origins and language of the Etruscans. In fact, the Orientalizing is not even an exclusive phenomenon of the Etruscans.


    If the language came from outside, it happened much earlier, in the Bronze Age. The two most reasonable assumptions are that the Etruscan language came from the north, where the Rhaetian peoples are, or that it was one of the languages of the pre-Italic peoples of the Italian Peninsula.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Taurus For This Useful Post:

     Ajeje Brazorf (06-14-2019),  Cascio (06-14-2019),  spruithean (06-14-2019),  vettor (06-14-2019)

  3. #22
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,754
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA
    T1a2b- Z19945
    mtDNA
    H95a1

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Australia Eureka
    Quote Originally Posted by vittoria View Post
    Is there any proof of the Etruscan language in Lazio before the 8th century BC? No. The 8th century BC is the same period as the rise of the distinctive Etruscan culture. So, the language and distinctive archaeological culture begin to appear in the same period of time.



    Read the following: "I believe that certain features in the design and decoration of the monumental Etruscan tombs of the seventh century (especially in the area of Caere), combined with the other aspects of Etruscan culture described here suggest that some Near Eastern immigrants were buried in these tombs. These immigrants must therefore have been members of the local elite."

    And: "I focus on southern Etruria because this is where the rock-cut tombs with benches and most of the other features discussed here are concentrated; also see StrÝm 1971, 201, who noted that “the origin and early development of the Etruscan Orientalizing style can be restricted largely to the artistic position of Southern Etruria from the late 8th century B.C. to about the middle of the 7th century...”".

    And: "The Iron Age of Etruria (ca. 900-700) is usually referred to as “Villanovan.” Although there are signs of nucleation in the settlement pattern during this period, the characteristic feature of Villanovan culture is the use of cremation tombs, in which the ashes are contained within large biconical urns of dark impasto with incised linear decoration. The largest Villanovan cemeteries in Etruria are associated with sites that became the main cities in historical times, especially near the coast (Veii,Cerveteri, Tarquinia,Vulci,Vetulonia, Populonia). During the course of the eighth century, inhumation appeared alongside cremation, and graves became richer. However, around 700, the local and still quite provincial Iron Age Villanovan culture was transformed into what we refer to as Etruscan civilization. Because of the heavy dose of Near Eastern influence, the seventh century is referred to as the Orientalizing period in Etruria."

    The mentioned early Iron Age Near Eastern immigrants spoke the Etruscan language (and they intermingled with the Italic speakers who were majority when the immigrants came into the region) and their culture had their origins in the Near East. The people of the local Villanovan culture did not speak the Etruscan language. The Near Eastern immigrants were the Etruscan speaking elites of Latium. The region of Latium was full with Italic speaking people when the minority Etruscan speakers came in. And there is no sign of the Etruscan language in Latium before the 8th century BC. I dont know why it is so difficult for you to understand this.

    Also read the following information:



    This is obviously showing that before the 8th century BC(since the late Bronze Age), Indo-European(Italic) speaking people were settled in Latium under the Villanovan archaeological culture.
    And then suddenly within the 8th century BC, Near Eastern Etruscan speaking immigrants came into the region of Latium. They became the elites of Latium, they changed the culture of the region into a Near Eastern Etruscan style. But they were only the minority elites of the region. And within the following centuries, some of the Italic speaking locals became assimilated by the minority of Etruscans, and the same happened vice versa.
    villanovan culture was only etruscan, it did not incorporate Rhaeti lands
    was it proto-villanovan which was in central europe?



    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by vitellia View Post
    There's the theory that it's a Germanic legacy in Tuscans (voiceless labiovelar fricative), and since the Germanic people were really there in Tuscany unlike Iranians, you're way off base.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicel...ar_approximant
    Germanic language didn't exist in Europe before 500 BC, what do you mean by Iranians? I talk about people who lived in the west of Iran before the arrival of Iranian tribes, such as Guti, Suedin, Almani, Suebi, Germani, Padan, Dani, Semnoni, ... who called their land Asgard (Old Persian Asagarta, Greek Zagros).





    The chief god of these people was Ans/Ansuz (Akkadian Anshur/Anshar) and their original land was Ansan (Akkadian Anshan, Sumerian Anzan), Cyrus the Great called himself king of Ansan, the name of this god was gradually changed to Aesur (Akkadian Ashur, Indo-Iranian Asura, Etruscan Aeser), after Arrival of Iranian tribe to Iran the same god was called Ahura (god of Zoroastrians).

  5. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    108
    Sex

    First on the topic of Etruscans any speculation has to contend with the existence of the Rhaetian language and the antiquity of its divergence with Etruscan. Paragraph after paragraph and page after page of speculation has been thrown around but all the theories that explain Etruscans as distant migrants are dead in the water without an explanation of Rhaetic or at the very least a quality refutation of the dating of the split between Etruscan/Rhaetian to before the bronze age.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Germanic language didn't exist in Europe before 500 BC, what do you mean by Iranians? I talk about people who lived in the west of Iran before the arrival of Iranian tribes, such as Guti, Suedin, Almani, Suebi, Germani, Padan, Dani, Semnoni, ... who called their land Asgard (Old Persian Asagarta, Greek Zagros).





    The chief god of these people was Ans/Ansuz (Akkadian Anshur/Anshar) and their original land was Ansan (Akkadian Anshan, Sumerian Anzan), Cyrus the Great called himself king of Ansan, the name of this god was gradually changed to Aesur (Akkadian Ashur, Indo-Iranian Asura, Etruscan Aeser), after Arrival of Iranian tribe to Iran the same god was called Ahura (god of Zoroastrians).
    You can't resurrect dead theories from well over a hundred years ago without new evidence. I looked up the first quote you posted as an image and its from "Primitive Civilizations: Or, Outlines of the History of Ownership, Volume 1" from 1897. That page doesn't equate the Guti with Gutones or Germanics but does equate Guti to the hebrew Goyim which is also ridiculous. None of the timelines are ever going to fit either. You said that Germanic languages weren't spoken before 500BCE in Europe which is only true insofar as that is the most common date for Proto-Germanic so you could argue it didn't exist before then which makes it a meaningless statement. Germanic doesn't have layer upon layer of loans from middle eastern language families and corresponding genetic admixture either.

    If you wanted to link anyone to the Gutians you should have gone with unknown PIE branch or relatives/ancestors of the Tocharians because at least then you can fall back to a "why not" position.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xenus For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (06-14-2019),  spruithean (06-14-2019)

  7. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by xenus View Post
    You can't resurrect dead theories from well over a hundred years ago without new evidence. I looked up the first quote you posted as an image and its from "Primitive Civilizations: Or, Outlines of the History of Ownership, Volume 1" from 1897. That page doesn't equate the Guti with Gutones or Germanics but does equate Guti to the hebrew Goyim which is also ridiculous. None of the timelines are ever going to fit either. You said that Germanic languages weren't spoken before 500BCE in Europe which is only true insofar as that is the most common date for Proto-Germanic so you could argue it didn't exist before then which makes it a meaningless statement. Germanic doesn't have layer upon layer of loans from middle eastern language families and corresponding genetic admixture either.

    If you wanted to link anyone to the Gutians you should have gone with unknown PIE branch or relatives/ancestors of the Tocharians because at least then you can fall back to a "why not" position.
    It really doesn't matter for me that the language of Asgardi people in Iran is called Germanic or not, however I have found more than 2,000 Akkadian, Hurro-Urartian, Sumerian, Elamite, Indo-Iranian, Hittite, ... words in modern Germanic languages, all of them with Germanic sound shifts. There are also several Germanic words in those languages. We can also find many words which have been reborrowed, like Akkadian xanep/Arabic xanif "hempen cloth" which itself is a proto-Germanic loanword from Akkadian kanabu "hemp".



    The most important thing is phonology and sound shifts, an PIE language could be changed to nothing except proto-Germanic in the west of Iran, almost the same phonology and sound changes still exist in the west of Iran, like Luri oxtafus "octopus". We see a similar phonology and sound changes in Tusan language.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. Evidence for Caucasian origins of Etruscans
    By talljimmy0 in forum General
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 12-20-2018, 01:08 AM
  2. Protovillanovans, Villanovans, Etruscans and hair colour in Italy
    By Simon_W in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-13-2016, 08:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •