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Thread: Genetic history of the population of Crete Drineas et al. 2019

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    There is an earlier paper from 2007 by laisel martinez , y haplo in the cretan highland stating 41 samples from lasithi cretan highlands being of solely venetian lines
    12 x r-u152
    Some r1a
    3 x t1a
    I do not know the haplogroups of the other snp they supplied.......see figure 2 from that paper
    I have checked that old 2007 paper, it doesn't give us any significant info. If someone is interested, here is the link:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ghland_plateau
    (as you can see, article authors considered Lasithi Plateau to be a sort of "refuge" for Minoans, an assumption that is definitly wrong).

    Comparing frequencies of major Y-happlogroups in different regions is a method that doesn't give us much info, and easily leads to wrong conclusions.
    By the way, they didn't even test samples for U152, only for M269. I see no T1a either, only M184 (this means T).
    Those R1b-M269 and T lines can be Venetian, can be not Venetian - we need more detailed happlogroup to say.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    I have checked that old 2007 paper, it doesn't give us any significant info. If someone is interested, here is the link:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ghland_plateau
    (as you can see, article authors considered Lasithi Plateau to be a sort of "refuge" for Minoans, an assumption that is definitly wrong).

    Comparing frequencies of major Y-happlogroups in different regions is a method that doesn't give us much info, and easily leads to wrong conclusions.
    By the way, they didn't even test samples for U152, only for M269. I see no T1a either, only M184 (this means T).
    Those R1b-M269 and T lines can be Venetian, can be not Venetian - we need more detailed happlogroup to say.
    I believe all except a few R1a to be of venetian origin

    I suggest you google the many links to venetians in lasithi.....archives state it was unihabited in 1293 when venetiabs first settled there
    The point is that the new paper showing the 3 areas of diffetent populace in crete needs to complement older papers of which there are many

    Before T ydna became T in 2008 , it was known as K-M70
    Last edited by vettor; 06-14-2019 at 12:31 AM.

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    The entire study seems a bit fishy. No ancient samples have been analyzed, so how can admixture events be accurately quantified?

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  7. #14
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    I got a lot to say.

    1.) Dr. Stamatoyannopoulos is listed as the last author. Maybe his inclusion is just a nice gesture, but if he indeed personally contributed then this is probably the last study he was involved with before he died.

    2.) No doubt that Cretans do have some Slavic ancestry, but the ALDER estimate for medieval Northern European gene flow into Crete (17-28%) seems a little too high. Two years ago, Stamatoyannopoulos released a paper on the Peloponnesus which estimated a maximum Slavic input of 14.4% in modern Peloponnesians (this was based on a novel analysis of ADMIXTURE). By Slavic he meant Polish-like. If we assume South Slavic-like people invaded Greece, the actual Slavic contribution would be a lot higher obviously. I happen to share the intuition that the Slavs who invaded Greece were indeed Northern European-like and not Serb-like, but this can't just be assumed. We'll need ancient DNA from the Byzantine period to test this. Maybe we'll get lucky and find a few pristine Slavs or first-generation mixes in the transect.

    3.) It would be so nice to have these Cretan genomes available for public use. It's encouraging that Dr. Lazaridis is involved in the study. He certainly knows the importance of data sharing, so if the genotypes aren't released soon, I'll tweet him about it. Imagine being able to compare these Cretans to the ancient individuals buried at Roopkund Lake. If they were indeed Cretans, we might even be able to tell what part of the island they came from based on the data here.

    4.) For that matter, I would love to get my hands on the Dodecanese and Peloponnesian samples this lab is sitting on. In the supplementary materials, the authors list the source for all the samples used in the study. The Dodecanese are referenced as derived from the "present" study, along with 229 Peloponnesians, 30 Cypriots, 20 Serbians, 9 Andalusians, 20 Sicilians. All of these were processed with IlluminaOmni2.5M. That's a lot of SNPs. I suppose it's possible the Dodecanese and Peloponnesians in this study are actually the same ones used in Stamatoyannopoulos 2017 (which also had a lot of West Anatolian, Cappadocian, and Pontic Greek samples), but I imagine the authors would acknowledge that if it were the case. In any event, seeing all of these different kinds of Greeks on one PCA with other West Eurasians would make me a very happy Hellene. Dr. Laz, hear my prayers.

    5.) The 10 Dodecanese samples plotted on the PCA in Sup Figure 17c are probably from more northern islands. Notice that many of the Cretans in this PCA are more "southern" (Near East-shifted) than any of the Dodecanese here. This is probably a sign we're not seeing many Karpathians or Rhodians here. The ones I've seen, outliers or not, suggest the Southern Dodecanese centroid is closer to Cyprus than Crete's average is. Of course, Romaniotes should still be the closest Europeans to Cypriots and Syrian Jews.

    6.) The high IBD figures that Cretans share with NE Europeans versus the lower sharing with the Near East and Caucasus is interesting. To me this suggests that the Near Eastern ancestry in Cretans is ancient and probably Phoenician in origin. If it was the result of gene flow from Hellenized Levantines (or Armenians, Anatolians, whatever) migrating to the islands during the Roman era, I would expect the IBD sharing with Caucasus and Near East to be about as high as it is with the Slavs considering the time frames involved. Roman Greece begins 146 BCE. The Slavs invade Greece in the 6th century. That leaves about a 700-year window for Roman-era Levantine gene flow into the islands, and I would expect it to happen on the later end of that if it happened at all.

    7.) On a more amusing note, this is probably worth saying, too:

    Typical Cretans are some of the most stereotypically Mediterranean-looking people you'll ever see in your life. Your average Cretan looks like he stepped right off an ancient Greek fresco or vase. That said, I've encountered many a boring person dote on about how some Cretans represent a survival of tall, fair Dorian warriors that preserve the type of the original Greeks. Sfakians in particular have been singled out for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carleton Coon
    "One special group, the Sphakiots, living near the western end of the south side of the island, differ from the other Cretans in a number of characters; they are very tall, with a mean stature of 175 cm., and meso- to sub-brachycephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 81.6. They have especially large heads, with a mean length of 191 mm. and breadth ci 155 mm.; their faces are longer than the others, and equally broad or broader. Morphologically Dinaric types are common among them; they may be compared with Montenegrins and the northernmost Ghegs. According to the general assumption of authorities on Crete, the Sphakioti are the partial descendants of the Dorians who invaded the island at the end of the Minoan period. That some of them do resemble the traditional Spartan type is very likely. One can only derive them from the north, from the region in which the larger branch of the Dinaric race was formed."
    Quote Originally Posted by Sfakia-Crete.com (Tourism Site)
    Maybe it sounds strange to you, but many people from Sfakia are blue-eyed and fair-haired: The ancient Thracians were proverbially blue-eyed and fair-haired. Tall blonds were common among the ancient Greeks, who were a long-headed people and the Sphakiots of Crete, probably the purest representatives of the old Hellenes in existence, are tall and blond. But considering that Greek colonization was taking place on a great scale in the eighth century B.C., and that, centuries earlier and later, the restless Hellene had been fighting, trading, plundering and kidnapping, on both sides of the Ęgean, and perhaps as far as the shores of Syria and of Egypt, it is probable that, even at the dawn of history, the maritime Greeks were a very mixed race.
    Nice to see this stupid canard smashed to pieces by hard data. Sfakians plot just like other Cretans. They're obviously isolated, but they're genetically as East Mediterranean as their neighbors. The case of light-pigmented Samaritans is instructive here, and maybe one day people will stop assuming every instance of blondism is a sign of elevated northern ancestry. Fat chance in a world where people regularly claim dark-haired Brits are the result of Spanish shipwrecks, but a guy can hope.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    The inferences from IBD in this paper are kind of funny.

    I don't think the authors are aware that the demographic histories of the reference populations can skew the results. For example, because of the rapid expansions of certain groups across sparsely populated Eastern Europe, most Eastern European groups share a lot of IBD. So any group that has even minor ancestry from Eastern Europe will end up getting a lot of IBD hits with Eastern Europeans. On the other hand, groups with more complex demographic histories and also high effective population sizes will show low IBD sharing with almost everyone, including often geographic neighbors who are very similar to them and overall closely related. This is especially true of Near Easterners. You can see this effect in the plots here...

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/...rasia-and.html

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  11. #16
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    Lazaridis on Twitter:
    "This work started before we published the first genome-wide data from Bronze Age Crete which showed that the Minoan population of the island did not yet have the affinity to Central/Eastern Europe which contributes some ancestry of present-day Cretans."

    So this thing was in the fire before the Mycenaean paper came out. That's probably why there's no mention of any ancient DNA relevant to the populations at hand. It's basically just Stamatoyannopoulos 2017 Part 2: Cretan Boogaloo.

    We could do a lot more interesting stuff with these genomes ourselves if we just had the data.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    I sent a genotype data request e-mail to...

    ppaschou at purdue.edu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    My explanation for Slavic input in Crete is low level migration from mainland Greece, not ancient tribes from NE Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    But if you read the study, Crete has more IBD sharing with Slavs than with Sicilians, which means that the shared DNA with Sicily is so old and that the Slavic input is recent.
    Yes, I think no body really believes that actual Polish/Ukrainian-like Slavs settled in Crete. It's much more plausible that Slavic-mixed mainlanders have settled there over the many centuries since the 6th century AD Slavic invasion into the Balkans.

    And, as I said in my key points in the opening post, I also believe the high IBD sharing is the result of this happening "recently". By recently we mean in the last millennia or so.

    This is also why Ashkenazi Jews share relatively high IBD matches with East European Slavs.

    I also believe this is one of the reasons why Ashkenazi Jews overlap with Cretans so well - they probably share roughly the same amount of Slavic admixture, compare to other Hellenic populations, and other than that their basic East Med substratum is similar (Ashkenazi Jews probably have more Near Eastern, Levantine to be exact, admixture though), while Sephardic and other Western Jews overlap with populations with substantial Greek ancestry without any Slavic admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Considering what Sicily's Bronze Age inhabitants looked like, there is in my opinion no avoiding the fact that Greek settlement was the most important event in Sicily's (and to a larger extent Southern Italy's) demographic history at this stage. I've said this elsewhere, but we should remember that considering their elevated affinity to the Mycenaeans as well as to the samples from Empuries, the overlap with the Sicilians should primarily be interpreted as a sign of shared Greek ancestry from a time when the mainland had a genetic profile which now survives only in isolated areas (such as the Mani Peninsula) and in the Aegean.
    Yes, precisely my belief as well. It seems that the lack of of any Slavic-like admixture in Sicily and to a larger extent South Italy, and the very minimal amounts of such admixture among Aegean Greeks, cause these populations to resemble ancient Greeks much more than contemporary mainland Greeks.
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    Essentially we are looking at a similar genetic relationship between Sicily and Crete, as between Ireland and Britain, if not even closer. The difference between Ireland and Britain may actually be more comparable to Sicily/Crete versus the Dodecanese, but in this study, the Dodecanese overlap completely with the Cretans and partially with the Sicilians so the difference there is likely not large, either. I don't think Karpathos is the baseline for the entire Dodecanese, they might be an outlier. Kalymnians, for instance, plot pretty much like the Calabrese.

    What would be interesting to me is to see if Sicily has higher, equal, or lower IBD sharing with North Africans and Near Easterners than Crete does? It could help date such admixture into Sicily, some of which I suspect is actually from the Arab conquest and therefore more recent than that into Crete. But this is just my opinion and it could be different in real life.

    The main difference genetically between Sicily and Crete is going to be the presence of Slavic input in Crete versus West European in Sicily, with a tradeoff between Caucasus vs SW Asian/North African (the former higher in Crete and the latter in Sicily) also taking place. But if the majority of Sicily has nearly complete PCA overlap with Crete, as the study suggests, then such variation is small enough to still enable the population to cluster as one.

    High IBD sharing between Crete and North/Central/Eastern Europe would suggest Slavic-influenced mainlanders settling there, so I'd imagine IBD between mainland Greeks and these Slavic peoples would be even higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Nice to see this stupid canard smashed to pieces by hard data. Sfakians plot just like other Cretans. They're obviously isolated, but they're genetically as East Mediterranean as their neighbors. The case of light-pigmented Samaritans is instructive here, and maybe one day people will stop assuming every instance of blondism is a sign of elevated northern ancestry. Fat chance in a world where people regularly claim dark-haired Brits are the result of Spanish shipwrecks, but a guy can hope.
    I have a few Sfakians on GEDmatch and they plot kind of like Maniots... a few plot slightly north of the rest of Crete but very minimally. They end up similar to Apulians also.

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