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Thread: Genetic history of the population of Crete Drineas et al. 2019

  1. #21
    I sense a cleverly veiled agenda. Are Ashkenazi Jews more “European” than Levantine, or are Cretans more Levantine than “European”.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by talljimmy0 View Post
    I sense a cleverly veiled agenda. Are Ashkenazi Jews more “European” than Levantine, or are Cretans more Levantine than “European”.
    Ashkenazi Jews, like all Western Jews, are East Mediterranean ethnic group, that also, based on uniparental evidence (as well as autosomal evidence) have substantial Levantine ancestry (topped only by Cypriots, Romaniote and Syrian Jews it appears) on it's male lineages in common with other contemporary "full" Levantines. I think this dichotomy of paternal vs. maternal Levantine lineages is unique for Western Jews, as Near Eastern origin in the other member of this genetic continuum seem to be more balanced (although in the case of Hellenic uniparentals in Sicilians, I think there was a study which showed that a similar dichotomy exists there just with actual Greek-originating uniparental subclades appearing mostly among the paternal lineages in Sicilians).
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by talljimmy0 View Post
    I sense a cleverly veiled agenda. Are Ashkenazi Jews more “European” than Levantine, or are Cretans more Levantine than “European”.
    Not sure how relevant the label "European" is when talking about East Mediterranean ancestry.

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  6. #24
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    Ashkenazi Jews are a different population to Cretans on a fundamental level. Cretans have always clustered with Southern Europeans in one shape or form since the Bronze Age e g. Neoltihic Peloponnesians, Minoans, Mycenaeans to modern Cretans. The paper highlights how they likely received a migration from Anatolia sometime during the Bronze Age as well as another migration from Northern Europe during the Middle Ages; this has resulted in them landing where they do now with Sicilians and Peloponnesian Greeks. They're overwhelmingly Aegean in origin and heavily Anatolian (Bronze Age) as well.

    Jews on the other hand originated as a Near Eastern people and migrated into Europe quite recently. They originally clustered like Levantines but absorbed a lot of European admixture from different sources that radically changed their clustering within a relatively short space of time. They are probably 40% Levantine in origin but because of their accrued Roman, Greek and Northern European admixture they have landed in a similar space to the Cretans by proxy but can be easily differentiated with more sophisticated methods as shown in this study. Ashkenazi Jews are a more disparate mixture that includes a greater level of total northern elements via Romans, Greeks, Slavs and Germans but also more total southern elements via Judeans and North Africans. They're unlikely to have a good deal of Anatolian (Bronze Age) input like Cretans do although both groups share Greek ancestry.

    Both Cretans and Ashkenazi Jews are part of the European cluster and not the Near Eastern one so they're distinct from Lebanese, Palestinians and Syrians and so on. The reasons for this are different and related to their unique genetic histories. The matter of who is European also invovles other significant factors outside of genetic clustering such as geography, sociopolitcs, culture and language. Cretans are undeniably European in all of these ways but I think many Ashkenazi Jews would feel uncomfortable with assuming that label because of their history in the continent and the fact Israel is in the Middle East and not Europe. For that reason I allow every Ashkenazi Jew (and other western Jews) to define if they are more Levantine or European themselves.
    Last edited by LTG; 06-14-2019 at 04:26 PM.

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  8. #25
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    I think it's a bit unusual the choice to delve into just Ashkenazi Jews and Cretans and compare them then to Palestinians (politics much?) and the endogamous Druze. Eitherway I wouldn't put a lot of stock into those K admixture results between them, it reminds me a bit of a bloggers name I won't make mention who tried to claim Western Jews are closest to Turks because they didn't behave the same as Palestinians over his own allegedly unsupervised K admixture runs. I like though that this study acknowledged a growingly popular theory in this thread as to why Cretans, Western Jews and Sicilians may be quite close to one another, drawing on the significant spread of the four major ancient Greek tribes and Hellenes before. The IBD results for reasons explained previously also doesn't deter me from believing Cretans today probably will owe a greater earlier origin (maybe 10-20%?) to Levantine Phoencians (or other Levantines that became Hellenized) than say Dodecanese Greeks and also South Italians I personally think (excluding perhaps Sicilians and Maltese who seem to descend from them)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Not sure how relevant the label "European" is when talking about East Mediterranean ancestry.
    Never been a fan of the term 'European Jew' either. It never made sense for me to see Sephardic Turks as 'European Jews' even though some bloggers were referring to them as that. 'Western Jew' is very appropriate as it more or less implies a Jew belonging to a genetic continuum of people who are ancestral to the East-Mediterranean world and may have acquired European cultural influences at varying levels. I think I see get what you mean with this quote though, modern populations within the East-Mediterranean continuum IMO are basically very relevant ancestrally to Southern Europe, North Africa, the Levant and Anatolia and maybe semi challenge the notion that you can simply draw a line between genetic Europeans and genetic Near Easterners, hence why I guess we just refer to all of them as that big umbrella term West-Eurasians.
    Last edited by Seabass; 06-14-2019 at 02:34 PM.

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  10. #26
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    Taking into account actual ancestry and migrations, Sicilians are genetically closest to Cretans in that of all other groups they experienced the most similar ethnogenessis. Not Ashkenazim due to their origins as a fully Levantine group that absorbed other mixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I have a few Sfakians on GEDmatch and they plot kind of like Maniots... a few plot slightly north of the rest of Crete but very minimally. They end up similar to Apulians also.
    Do you know the Y-DNA results of those Sfakians you have on GEDmatch?

  13. #28
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    No Y-DNA results from this paper?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Never been a fan of the term 'European Jew' either. It never made sense for me to see Sephardic Turks as 'European Jews' even though some bloggers were referring to them as that. 'Western Jew' is very appropriate as it more or less implies a Jew belonging to a genetic continuum of people who are ancestral to the East-Mediterranean world and may have acquired European cultural influences at varying levels. I think I get what you mean with this quote though, modern populations within the East-Mediterranean continuum IMO are basically very relevant ancestrally to Southern Europe, North Africa, the Levant and Anatolia and maybe semi challenge the notion that you can simply draw a line between genetic Europeans and genetic Near Easterners, hence why I guess we just refer to all of them as that big umbrella term West-Eurasians.
    I very much second that. I'd also like to emphasize that from a Jewish standpoint, the term "Western Jewish" is a fitting counterpart for "Mizrahi Jewish" in many ways, first because "Mizrahi" basically means "eastern", and because this division reflects to a large extent the linguistic divide of the early diaspora (Greek and Aramaic).
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  16. #30
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    The thing is, as Seabass correctly wrote and I have been propogating in the past year, that while the paternal forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly Levantine (most likely Judean), they have mostly mixed with Hellenic people (vast majority were women) some 1800-2200 years ago, and considering we now have substantial indications that Imperial and late Republican Era Romans were most likely also mostly Hellenic-like, that means that the vast majority of their South European admixture is most likely the same Hellenic-like (rather than North Italian-like) component which is dominant among contemporary Cretans, Sicilians and the rest of the members of the East Mediterranean Continuum .
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