Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 15 of 15

Thread: What does it mean to be genetically Jewish?

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    823
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H47
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-Y2750

    United States of America Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    That group could be virtually extinct but they themselves haven't figured it out yet. How many Ultra-Orthodox have that unbroken matrilineal line?
    What group could be extinct? How many Ultra-Orthodox have unbroken matrilineal lines of either born Jews or converted Jews? My guess is 99%.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jonahst For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (08-12-2019),  C J Wyatt III (08-12-2019),  Targum (08-12-2019)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    738
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    H5
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-FGC24357

    United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    What group could be extinct? How many Ultra-Orthodox have unbroken matrilineal lines of either born Jews or converted Jews? My guess is 99%.
    OK, I stand corrected. I guess I discounted the incidence of conversion, but I am still a bit skeptical about how well many of those matrilineal lines will stand up to DNA testing

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    170
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    NW Europe+Ash/Seph Jewish

    England Star of David Netherlands Turkey Denmark Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    OK, I stand corrected. I guess I discounted the incidence of conversion, but I am still a bit skeptical about how well many of those matrilineal lines will stand up to DNA testing
    The point is not whether they'll stand up to DNA testing. People (including Orthodox Jews, if indeed the article from the OP has any validity) are barking up the wrong tree if they think they can find "unbroken" mtDNA lines going back to the Levant, although there are certainly some. They are much more likely to find Y-DNA lines going back to the Levant, as so many studies on the major Jewish groups have pointed out. That doesn't mean that those Jewish lines are "broken" though, for a number of reasons. For one thing, patrilineal descent was much more widely accepted among Jews at the dawn of the diaspora. For another, even if descent is considered to be matrilineal, as it has come to be, a mother who has converted to Judaism will pass that status onto her child as much as one who belongs to a historically Jewish community. In terms of genetic "proof" of being connected to historically Jewish communities, autosomal tests, despite their flaws, are more reliable, since Y-DNA and mtDNA reflect such a small percentage of our overall ancestry. Of course none of this will prove that someone is halakhically Jewish, and there is no point in using it to do so.

  5. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to passenger For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (08-12-2019),  C J Wyatt III (08-12-2019),  jetshop (08-16-2019),  JMcB (08-12-2019),  jonahst (08-12-2019)

  6. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    823
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H47
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-Y2750

    United States of America Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    OK, I stand corrected. I guess I discounted the incidence of conversion, but I am still a bit skeptical about how well many of those matrilineal lines will stand up to DNA testing
    I think most probably would. Jews, especially Orthodox Jews, have been extremely endogamous for most of our history. Of course there are always exceptions, which is why I wrote 99% and not 100%.

    And while a minority of these matrilineal lines likely go back to the Biblical Israelites (since we know that most of the common Levantine ancestry of modern Jews is paternal), most either predate the switch from patrilineal to matrilineal (in which case, it's irrelevant) or they necessarily entailed some degree of conversion (whatever that entailed) for the children to be accepted as Jews by other Jews.

    Think about it: in pre-modern times, if a Jewish man secretly conceived a child with a non-Jewish woman, the woman is the one who would carry the child to term, the one who would actually birth the child, and unless the woman joined the Jewish community (which would obviously involve conversion), that child would not be raised as a Jew and its descendants would not be modern Jews.

    This also isn't all that different from what has happened since Jewish Emancipation in Europe. Most intermarriage was, in practice, out-marriage.

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jonahst For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (08-12-2019),  C J Wyatt III (08-12-2019),  passenger (08-12-2019)

  8. #15
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,622
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FGC36981

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Sounds like what your parents taught it is the exception. For most of Jewish history under Christianity, being Jewish was considered a negative thing and being called a Jew was an insult. Of course, Christianity is not unique in this regard.
    There is nominal Christianity, and then there is authentic Christianity.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-09-2019, 04:41 PM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-10-2018, 05:42 PM
  3. Replies: 91
    Last Post: 11-24-2017, 06:43 PM
  4. Genetically Speaking, Youíre More Like Your Dad (?)
    By Tomenable in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-28-2016, 06:48 PM
  5. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-27-2016, 09:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •