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Thread: Ancient DNA evidences for Indo-Iranian origin in Scandinavia

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    Ancient DNA evidences for Indo-Iranian origin in Scandinavia

    As we know Indo-European language was initially divided into two different branches of Satem and Centum, in all possibility Satem language was originated in the Corded Ware culture and then reached to Sintshta culture:



    Existence of a large number of Indo-Iranian words in proto-Finno-Ugric language, like the same word of satem "hundred", show that Indo-Iranian existed in the north of Europe, the number of Indo-Iranian loanwords increases in the proto-Finnic and Proto-Samic languages where we see *orja (arya), the self-identifying ethnonym of the Indo-Iranian peoples, in these languages.

    Indo-Iranians called their original land Vaeja, this name is also similar to Vuoja, the name of Gotland in Finnish, also Vāci, the name of Germans in Latvian.

    What we read about Airyana Vaeja in Avesta is almost the same as Fimbulvetr in Norse mythology:

    The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja, by the Vanguhi Daitya. Thereupon came Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), who is all death, and he counter-created the serpent in the river and Winter, a work of the Daevas.
    There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]

    About ancient DNA evidences, I have read that subclades of R1b-U106 have been found both in Samara in Russia and north Pakistan, but I think the more important haplogroup whcih can be related to Indo-Iranian migration from Scandinavia to Pakistan is R1a-Y17491: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

    Are there other ancient DNA evidences for this migration?
    Last edited by Cyrus; 06-15-2019 at 07:00 PM.

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    I highly doubt there was any migration from Scandinavia to the Iranian Plateau. It's probably just shared Corded Ware-related ancestry. That particular R1a subclade is found in a lot of places in the Middle East and Europe, and it has a TMRCA of 4600 BP, which puts it right at the time of Corded Ware.
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  5. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I highly doubt there was any migration from Scandinavia to the Iranian Plateau. It's probably just shared Corded Ware-related ancestry. That particular R1a subclade is found in a lot of places in the Middle East and Europe, and it has a TMRCA of 4600 BP, which puts it right at the time of Corded Ware.
    Iranian Plateau?!! Indo-Iranians never migrated to Iran, the expansion of Iranian culture to the Iranian Plateau dates back to the 1st millennium BC, of course in the 2nd millennium BC we see evidences of Indo-Aryan (a non-Iranian subbranch of Indo-Iranian) culture in the north Syria, specially with a strong influence in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni. There are some genetic evidences about haplogroup R1a which show a possible migration from India to the north Syria in this period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Indo-Iranians never migrated to Iran
    Did you think this through before you typed it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    we see evidences of Indo-Aryan (a non-Iranian subbranch of Indo-Iranian) culture in the north Syria, specially with a strong influence in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni. There are some genetic evidences about haplogroup R1a which show a possible migration from India to the north Syria in this period.
    Of course. Certain steppe-related uniparentals in the Near East could reasonably be traced to the Mitanni.

    But the main point is that there is no evidence of any specifically Scandinavian migration to West Asia. Corded Ware reached Scandinavia and Iran (the latter in an indirect way through descendant cultures), but it did not originate in either place. Are you hypothesizing that Corded Ware offshoots like Sintashta came from Scandinavia?
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 06-15-2019 at 08:11 AM.
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  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos
    Did you think this through before you typed it?
    What do you mean? Do you want to say Indo-Iranians migrated to Iran?! You probably also think Turkic people migrated to Turkey, ...!!

    But the main point is that there is no evidence of any specifically Scandinavian migration to West Asia. Corded Ware reached Scandinavia and Iran (the latter in an indirect way through descendant cultures), but it did not originate in either place. Are you hypothesizing that Corded Ware offshoots like Sintashta came from Scandinavia?
    The fact is that we see some evidences about Scandinavian migration to South Asia (I don't know why you insist on West Asia!), like what I said about R1b and R1a haplogroups, it is certainly possible that just Indo-Iranian branch of Satem (not Baltic, Slavic, Armenian, ...) originated in Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    What do you mean? Do you want to say Indo-Iranians migrated to Iran?! You probably also think Turkic people migrated to Turkey, ...!!
    My bad, you're right. Indo-European languages just showed up in Iran magically one day. But in Turkey's case, I think it was aliens.

    Da fuck is wrong with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The fact is that we see some evidences about Scandinavian migration to South Asia
    We most certainly do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    (I don't know why you insist on West Asia!)
    Because there hasn't been a significant Scandinavian migration to any part of West Asia period. Maybe a few Varangian traders had a fun weekend in Baghdad with some local girls. That's about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    like what I said about R1b and R1a haplogroups, it is certainly possible that just Indo-Iranian branch of Satem (not Baltic, Slavic, Armenian, ...) originated in Scandinavia.
    Indo-Iranian probably originated in a culture like Srubnaya. There is no obvious connection to Scandinavia.

    Iranians have an extremely rich legacy already. No one needs to invent "alternative facts" about them.
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  11. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos
    My bad, you're right. Indo-European languages just showed up in Iran magically one day. But in Turkey's case, I think it was aliens.

    Da fuck is wrong with you?
    Cultural expansion has nothing to do migrations, French people didn't migrate from Italy to France, Turkic people didn't migrate from China to Turkey, ... It is meaningless that we search for ancient DNA evidences for Turkic people in Turkey, whereas we know Turkic culture didn't exist in Turkey in the 2nd millennium BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos
    Indo-Iranian probably originated in a culture like Srubnaya. There is no obvious connection to Scandinavia.
    We see a strong cultural influence of Indo-Aryan sub-branch of Indo-Iranian in Mitanni from at least 1600 BC and you say Indo-Iranian itself originated in a culture which dates back to 1200 BC?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos
    Iranians have an extremely rich legacy already. No one needs to invent "alternative facts" about them.
    Please focus on scientific works, instead of nationalist propaganda.

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    Well yes, those who believe in Steppe theory for all IE and Indo-Iranian will face the problem that R1a is too insignificant to explain the Iranian half of it.
    Hence Iranics are more or less just culturally IE from their perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Cultural expansion has nothing to do migrations
    Absolute nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    We see a strong cultural influence of Indo-Aryan sub-branch of Indo-Iranian in Mitanni from at least 1600 BC and you say Indo-Iranian itself originated in a culture which dates back to 1200 BC?!
    No, that's not what I said. You seem to have a hard time understanding simple words. I said that the language family originated in a culture like Srubnaya. The word "like" means "similar." Sintashta and Andronovo are like Srubnaya and are the most likely vectors for the Indo-Iranian language before its split. By the way, Srubnaya dates all the way back to the 18th century BCE, not 1200 BC.

    The point, again, is that these steppe cultures didn't come from Scandinavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Please focus on scientific works, instead of nationalist propaganda.
    Then you'll have no trouble admitting the Etruscans probably have nothing to do with Iranians, right? Because that's what the science on Italy is pointing to right now.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 06-15-2019 at 10:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Well yes, those who believe in Steppe theory for all IE and Indo-Iranian will face the problem that R1a is too insignificant to explain the Iranian half of it.
    Hence Iranics are more or less just culturally IE from their perspective.
    Wishful thinking.

    Iranian languages spread into Iran from Central Asia, and modern Iranians do have a large (~20%) share of the relevant type of ancestry. Duh.


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