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Thread: Ancient DNA evidences for Indo-Iranian origin in Scandinavia

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    They more likely read Tilak's book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ar...e_in_the_Vedas . Historical sources? Pathetic.
    Cyrus is getting stocked in the Oera Linda Book level, you know that book about the famous Frisian history in which the Frisians laid the fundament of the Western civilization....of course

    It was meant as an irony. But it was getting serious business especially when Himmler was getting this kind of stuff serious. Even today some esoteric and pagans believe it.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda_Book

    Good history writing doesn’t copy paste ancient history writing or takes mythology for sure but is always critical and puts them in context....
    Last edited by Finn; 07-05-2019 at 05:11 AM.

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  3. #102
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    Double posting.
    Last edited by Boreas; 07-07-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    What do you mean? Do you want to say Indo-Iranians migrated to Iran?! You probably also think Turkic people migrated to Turkey, ...!!



    The fact is that we see some evidences about Scandinavian migration to South Asia (I don't know why you insist on West Asia!), like what I said about R1b and R1a haplogroups, it is certainly possible that just Indo-Iranian branch of Satem (not Baltic, Slavic, Armenian, ...) originated in Scandinavia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    My bad, you're right. Indo-European languages just showed up in Iran magically one day. But in Turkey's case, I think it was aliens.

    Da fuck is wrong with you?


    Sorry to say - but your grandstanding a lost cause.

    The pioneering population repopulating Eurasia after The Younger Dryas Extinction Event (producing a massive bottle-neck in the Eurasian Genome) had to be surviving the historical "Fimbulwinter" - today known as The Younger Dryas (12.900 - 11.700 kalC14 yrs ago).

    You may benefit from noting that European Archaeology, Sso far, have identified only ONE proven refugia (area of survival) north opf the 40th parallell - where a continous population have existed THROGHOUT the Younger Dryas.

    Today we do KNOW that the ancestors of the post-glacial Europeans har their geneological and cultural roots in Paleolithic Europe, highly adapted to live and thrive in the Temperate Europe - throughout ice-time - until the unrivalled cold-snaps of the Late Weichsel occured - known as the LGM and the Dryas-periods.

    During the LGM (23-18.000 BP) ALL Eurasian megafauna was severely decimated, some species into extinction. In the colder and more arid part of Eurasia, east of the Baltic Ocean and the Dvina-Djepr rivers, all known populations disappeared, while a number of the populations in the milder west, along the Atlantic facade, where able to survive to remultiply during the Billeroed and Alleroed interstadials.

    When the last and sharpest cold-dip on record appeared, called the Younger Dryas, the decimation were far harder - leading to a massive extinction of all the Eurasian megafauna - as more than 1/2 of the exisitng species disappeared completely.

    As did the known habitats of arctically adapted human beings - today known as "Cro-Magnons" and "Proto-Caucasians".

    Most of the Cro-Magnon Solutreans and Gravettians disappeared during the LGM, when the Venetian Bay was ice-covered around the year and populated with seals and (arctic) pinguins.
    Some of their cro-magnon descendants out west - benfitting from the Gulf-stream - made it through the LGM though; to reappear as the cro-magnon 'Magdalenian', 'Hamburgian' and 'Pertunian' cultures - reaching from Spain to Brittain, north to southern Scandinavia and east to the southern Baltics - during the Alleroed oscilation.

    If the long and cold LGM had been a cathastrophe to the Eurasian cultures the short but even colder YD became a complete cataclysm - eradicating all larger animals known from Palolithic Europe, with a few exceptions - sucessfully hiding out in small refugias .

    The human populations that evolved between 18.000 and 13.000 yrs ago succeded to multiply and re-populate several 'hot-spots' the temperate climate-zone (north of the 40th paralell) - in both Europe, Brittain and America. But by 12.930 something started that effected the steepest cold-drop on record, with median temperatures dropping 10 to 15 *C depending on location - in less than 50 yrs.

    Over the last two decades a few prominent archaologers have tried solving the riddle about WHERE the human culture needed to produce the indigenous Europeans and re-populate Europe - actually survived the YD Extinction Event. From their work so far we have learned that ALL the known Alleroed-populations in Western as well as Eastern Europe did, indeed, all disapear around 13.000 yrs BP - at the onset of the YD.

    So far thee's only ONE continuum registered - as the northen branch of Magdalenien Europe, known as the 'Hamburgian/Bromme culture' - were present at the famous flint-mines on Scania and Jutland at 12.500 yrs BP, DURING the middle of the Younger Dryas.

    Moreover we do know from their post-glacial re-covery, re-multiplication and spread, that the re-population of a void and empty Eurasia started - once again - as a small group of the Hamburgian/Bromme-culture re-grouped as the Lyngby/Ahrensburg-culture, from which the Baltics as well as the North Sea and ALL of the Atlantic facade was re-populated by the boat-building flint-culture from NW Europe.

    The most severe bottleneck detected in the European genome is clearly linked to the Younger Dryas, not the LGM. Thus the older aDNA detected from Eurasia is most probably extinct.
    The cro-magnons starting the repopulating of temperate Europe where all decending from a small, arctic population - no older than 12.000 yrs - originated as the post-cro-magnons came out of their refugia - as the first 'Caucasians', forming and fixing the indigenious populations of western Eurasia.

    One of the first avenues for the travels, trades and interactions were the old highway between Central Asia and Northern Europe - along the Volga. Thus we find Sino-Tibetan brides marrying Swedish slash-burn-farmers at Oleni Ostrov in Onega some 7.500 yrs ago, already.

    At this time Onega was at the very cross-road of waterways connecting the Baltic trade-zone with the high-arctic White Sea as well as the Volga waterways far east and down south - to the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea. As well as the Aral Sea and the waterways out east and south-east, connecting the Volga-trade directly to the first exports of silk and spice out of China and India, respectively.


    The ancient silk-route reaching Europe was funded by east-bound pioneers and migrants from the Baltics - during the late Mesolithic, 9.000 yrs BP, already. Operated by the baltic and scandinavian boat-culures throughout the comming ages, as the domesticated breeds of European aur-oxes and horses were shipped across Eurasia to establish new off-shoots of cattle-farming and diary-production in areas otherwise unpopulated. Inbetween the first settlers of 'hunters and gatherers' - also known as trappers and herders, boatbuilders and fishermen, travellers and traders. Without their help the spread of horses and cattles to Central Asia and beyound - courtesy of the lactose-persistant R1a and R1b-men.

    Their area of origin seems to overlap the natural habitat-area of the wild European aur-ochs and its contemporary wild "aur-horse" - from whom all domesticated cattle was bred to fit the climates and biotophies they're exposed to.

    The agriculture spreading along the Volga had a Fenno-Scandianvian origin.
    Meanwhile the earliest potteries in Europe moves the other way - from Volga to the Western Baltics.
    Producing the worlds first asbestos-ceramics and pottery in Carelia, we find the old pit-comb-ceramics as well as the comb-ceramics and the textile-ceramics,

    Besides Corded Ware Culture, whose main identificator is the boat-axes found from eastern Carelia to west-coast Norway. It's area of origin is bound to the Western Baltics, where the oldest cattle-farming populations in the world is found. Today they're even proven to belong to the indigenous Europeans - who became famous already during the mesolithic, as they reached, interacted and mixed with the ancient populations who survived the LGM and the YD in the southern (tropical) parts of China, India and Arabia.

    The early spread of the y-dna F-family, such as the early lines of G, H, I and J, happened during the Mesolithic already. The distribution of ancient y-dna have shown that they all formed as patri-linear and patrilocal dynasties - within their respective regions of Eurasia, as y-dna G2 dominated Southern Europe, including Anatolia and Mesopotamia, while y-dna I2 dominated Northern Europe and the waterways to Central Asia - where their brother-line J2 had developed a large indo-iranian kingdom (aka etnicity, nation) repopulating the valleys running larger rivers west and south off the Himalayas, such Indus, Ganges and Brahma Putra.

    Mapping the ancient and present distribution of the patrilinear societies built by dynasties of y-dna GHIJK they cover most of Europe and Central Asia, as well as Asia Minor, Iran and India.
    Mapping the ancient and present spread of the Indo-European languages we actually end up with the very same, geographical area. There's an obvious co-relation between them, whatever old and new theories may propoze.

    When the later spread of cattle-farming and horse-breeding took off we got three new dynasties established, today detectable and definable as y-dna R1a, R1b and Q.
    As the newcomers established yards and farms, fields and gardens they came to interact closely with their pioneering cousines of the F-family - which is the main reason why the cattle-farmers and horse-breeders of y-dna R1a, R1b and Q had to use an Indo-European vocabulary needed to interact, travel and trade effectively - across the continent.

    Proving R1a to be Indo-European shouldn't require a brainsurgeon. Denying that the brother-line R1b had the very same background - in terms of culture, economy and language - does take some brainsurgery, though. To believe.

    Which mean that there's obvious links between the Swedish kingdom of cattle-farmers, the Russian kingdom of cattlefarmers and Tarim settlers turning mummies some 4.500 yrs ago. They're all from the same post-glacial group that produced R1a-men able to digest milk and diaries since, due to specific mutations, already before the mesolithic/neolithc transition. Not to mention thereafter.

    Understanding that the "highlander" farmers of N Ireland, Scotland and Sweden uses the same breeds of cattle and horses, able to survive cold winters and thrive in brisk summers. Which made them perfect for a cattle-farming spread throghout Fenno-Scandia, the Gulf of Finland and Carelia, where the 7.500 yrs old R1a is found in a context of agriculture, travel and trade - from where selected breeds from the European aurochs and the European horse were spread along the Volga - to reach China as well as India and Iran.

    While the larger, but warm-blooded lifestocks were spread by a dynasty of R1b, from Denmark/Germany/Holland to England as well as France and Spain. With time even to Cameroon. While an eastern branch of R1b took (lowland) farming along the Vistula and the Dvina, to populate Poland, Ukraine, Moldovia and (old) Dacia with the largest of bulls and cows. Ultimately reaching Sumer, Egypt and Africa.

    ---

    PS:
    The centum/satem-divide is found in the Uralian languages, where 'Sata' means '100', while 'Kunta' paralells 'Hund-are', as in "A Hundred", commonly used as name on "commune". Which is why the Finns have a local community by the name 'Sata-kunta'. Understanding that the Fenno-Ugrian and the Indo-European languages have a common, paleolithic origin ma help you improve your own knowledge and understandoing of history, rather than subjecting others to ad hominems and inuendos, simply because you have no clue to what they're on about.

    Rejecting the possibility of ancient gene-flow between Scandinavia and Spain, Italy, Greece, Anatolia, Irak, Iran, India and/or China is a non-starter. The mummies of Tarim were closely related to the ancient slash-burn-farmers in mesolithic Carelia and central Sweden. In terms of economical, cultural and genetical traits there are NO reason to disbelieve a close connection between the old Scandinavian kingdoms up north and the Brittish to the west. Just as the ancient kingdom of agricultural 'Sueones' played a vital part in the northern spread of agriculture throughout eastern Eurasia. Populating Volga and her tributaries the R1a-farmers established the very heartland of what eventually became 'Ros-land'. Menwhile the mideval scholars of iceland calls todays Russia "Greater Sweden" and "Colder Sweden". While the warmer summers of Ukraine made it a target for the R1b-dynasty, who brought the warm-blooed horses and cattles around southern Europe as well as Africa and Asia.

    Knowing the archaology of the Paleolithic versus the Mesolithic and Neolithic eras you may understand that the interactions, interchanges and inter-marriages between NW Europe versus SW Europe, NE Europe, SE Europe and SC Asia are obvious. During Bronze Age it's obviously quite frequent, too.

  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Cyrus is getting stocked in the Oera Linda Book level, you know that book about the famous Frisian history in which the Frisians laid the fundament of the Western civilization....of course

    It was meant as an irony. But it was getting serious business especially when Himmler was getting this kind of stuff serious. Even today some esoteric and pagans believe it.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda_Book

    Good history writing doesn’t copy paste ancient history writing or takes mythology for sure but is always critical and puts them in context....

    The recent research on the Oera Linda Boek isn't all that decisive.
    Which means there's still no evidence holding up to deem it "A 19th century fraud", rather than a genuine story from early Middle Ages.

    Unless you want to file the entire collections of Norse Sagas and Finnish folklore as utter and shere nonsens you can't debunk the Oera Linda as "something else". Because it isn't.

  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    The recent research on the Oera Linda Boek isn't all that decisive.
    Which means there's still no evidence holding up to deem it "A 19th century fraud", rather than a genuine story from early Middle Ages.

    Unless you want to file the entire collections of Norse Sagas and Finnish folklore as utter and shere nonsens you can't debunk the Oera Linda as "something else". Because it isn't.
    Which recent research....? The recent research is very clear and indicates that's a kind of hoax. And it's very differentiated from the sagas and folklore....

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