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Thread: Ancient DNA evidences for Indo-Iranian origin in Scandinavia

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Ummm, what? Okunevo is like 2000BC, Buddha is 500BC?
    It is Budh, and Odin and Budh are the same.
    Cf. Wednesday=Budhwar

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    These are in Russian: http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg407614

    Google translate:



    Pakistani haplogroup is also exactly the same R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Saying they are the same by coincidence sounds like a joke!
    It is best to leave that sample out of the discussion as it is likely R2.

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I hope folk reflect on this further. Why would one of the earliest split of the common Indo-Iranian community show little or no R1a1?
    I think even Ragha is a transferred name.
    Even the Parsis in Karachi who now have lived in the subcontinent for over 1000 years have minimal R1a (HG3) compared to their neighbors.
    (Only the Hazara are lower).


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  6. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    For info
    I don't know which root the old Alanic "As" comes from. What I know: the Icelandic "s" (plur: "sir") comes very likely from the proto-Germanic *ansuz, and ultimately from the proto-Indo-European *h₂nsus, on the verbal root *h₂ens- , which means "to give birth, to produce". There are some other less likely etymologies, in particular, one which goes back along to PIE nominal root *h₂ens-ih₂ , which means something like "link, bridle, tie". According to the first interpretation, the Gods-sir are the producing entities, according to the second one they are the powers in whose name we take the oath, an oath that binds us. In any case, this word has rigorously nothing to see with "Asia", as this word is of very uncertain etymology, but without any doubt, not Indo-European (the Akkadian word (w)aṣ(m), meaning "to ascend", seems to be the prefered of many linguists).
    I wouldn't be too sure about that. While I absolutely second what you've just said about the etymology being very uncertain (and in my view probably beyond any form of consensus without more epigraphic evidence for this word), an IE etymology might actually be more convincing. To be sure, the etymology itself would have nothing to do with the Old Norse ss.

    What we do know about the Greek word Ἀσία is that it derives from the Linear B a-si-wi-ja which is probably the Mycenaean gentilic for the Aššuwa league in neighbouring NW Anatolia. It is the etymology of this word that is questionable. It is likely to have derived from the Hittite aš-šu-wa which also referred to Lydia, however this word's etymology is also uncertain and could easily be non-IE, on the other hand it resembles an Old Indic loan into Hurrian for "horse". Others have proposed a Pre-Greek etymology for the Linear B a-si-wi-ja, however this view is an outlier. What does suggest a link with the Hittite aš-šu-wa is the fact that a-si-wi-ja was an epithet of the goddess Potnia Theron who is referred to as po-ti-ni-ja/a-si-wi-ja in some texts.

    On the other hand, some derive the Linear B a-si-wi-ja from the Akkadian verb wa-ṣu₂-u₂ meaning "to exit, to depart, to rise [in the sky]". While this etymology does not benefit from the cultural links seen above with Anatolia, it is nevertheless sound from a comparative standpoint. This terms derives from the PS root *wṣ́ˀ which has the same meaning. In turn it also embodies the semantic notion of "sunrise", and consequently the verb is also used in Akkadian to refer to the sun's appearance and the root yielded terms like Imperial Aramaic מועא mwˁˀ "sunrise" even though PNWS root *yṣˀ (<PCS *wṣ́ˀ) was largely lost in Proto-Aramaic, which underlines a very close association of this root with the Sun's path... And since this path runs from east to west, a link to the Mycenaean gentilic could in theory be made.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-20-2019 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Looks like AG has problems displaying Cuneiform, Linear B and other ancient scripts.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  8. #95
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    "Rasā (rasA: रसा), and Susartu, and with Svetya here, With Kubha"

    Rasa on the bank of which lived the Vedics and across it lived the PaNis (traders cf. Vanij, modern Baniya). These Panis comport well with the Vanir.

    See the story of the saramA in the Rg Ved: https://books.google.com/books?id=Af7TFlN5hmsC&pg=PA73
    Brhaspati=Jupiter=Thor (Brhaspativar, Jeudi, Thursday)
    Last edited by parasar; 06-20-2019 at 04:11 AM.

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  10. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Please show me your source, the only city in modern Iran which has been mentioned as an Iranian city in Avesta is Rhaga (modern Tehran), Zoroastrians of Tehran are certainly the oldest religious community of Iran, but they have no R1a.

    Can you or anybody else lead me to where i can find more updated iranian Y-dna info? Do we know what type of J2 and E1b1b1 Tehran's Zoroastrians have?

  11. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I wouldn't be too sure about that. While I absolutely second what you've just said about the etymology being very uncertain (and in my view probably beyond any form of consensus without more epigraphic evidence for this word), an IE etymology might actually be more convincing. To be sure, the etymology itself would have nothing to do with the Old Norse ss.

    What we do know about the Greek word Ἀσία is that it derives from the Linear B a-si-wi-ja which is probably the Mycenaean gentilic for the Aššuwa league in neighbouring NW Anatolia. It is the etymology of this word that is questionable. It is likely to have derived from the Hittite aš-šu-wa which also referred to Lydia, however this word's etymology is also uncertain and could easily be non-IE, on the other hand it resembles an Old Indic loan into Hurrian for "horse". Others have proposed a Pre-Greek etymology for the Linear B a-si-wi-ja, however this view is an outlier. What does suggest a link with the Hittite aš-šu-wa is the fact that a-si-wi-ja was an epithet of the goddess Potnia Theron who is referred to as po-ti-ni-ja/a-si-wi-ja in some texts.

    On the other hand, some derive the Linear B a-si-wi-ja from the Akkadian verb wa-ṣu₂-u₂ meaning "to exit, to depart, to rise [in the sky]". While this etymology does not benefit from the cultural links seen above with Anatolia, it is nevertheless sound from a comparative standpoint. This terms derives from the PS root *wṣ́ˀ which has the same meaning. In turn it also embodies the semantic notion of "sunrise", and consequently the verb is also used in Akkadian to refer to the sun's appearance and the root yielded terms like Imperial Aramaic מועא mwˁˀ "sunrise" even though PNWS root *yṣˀ (<PCS *wṣ́ˀ) was largely lost in Proto-Aramaic, which underlines a very close association of this root with the Sun's path... And since this path runs from east to west, a link to the Mycenaean gentilic could in theory be made.
    As in י-צ-א , להוציא etc?

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  13. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Can you or anybody else lead me to where i can find more updated iranian Y-dna info? Do we know what type of J2 and E1b1b1 Tehran's Zoroastrians have?
    Zoroastrians are J2-PAGE55* and E-V22.

    dhTpxAj.png
    hbS0YhK.png

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  15. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    As in י-צ-א , להוציא etc?
    Precisely. PS *wṣ́ˀ yielded cognates in every major branch of the Semitic languages except Arabic, for instance Geˁez ወፅአ wṣ́ˀ "to go out, depart, go forth, rise", Soqoṭri ˀeḍa "to sprout, to grow" and PNWS (where initial /w/>/y/) *yṣˀ in turn yielding Ugaritic yṣỉ "to depart, leave, go out, rise", Hebrew יצא yaṣaˀ "to exit, depart, go out" and Aramaic יעי yˁy "to sprout".

    There are some interesting parallels between Hebrew and Akkadian not only in terms of phonology but also in terms of nouns produced by reflexive stems (mishqal taqṭelah in Hebrew), this root is a pretty good example since its Gt-stem yielded the Akkadian tūṣātu (from an earlier PS *tawṣaˀtum if the reflexive stem was producive for nouns in Common Semitic) meaning "offspring/descendants" as in tu-ṣa-ti "my descendants" which is directly comparable to the Hebrew תוצאות toṣaˀōt meaning "results", "outcomes" and "consequences" which is also derived from the same root.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-20-2019 at 04:11 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  17. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    It is Budh, and Odin and Budh are the same.
    Cf. Wednesday=Budhwar
    "Surya, Candr, Mangal, Budh, Guru, Sukr and Sani"
    "Hora Bal. Hora means planetary hour. Each day from sunrise to sunrise is divided into 24
    equal parts of one hour. These Horas are ruled by the 7 Grahas from Surya to Sani. The first
    Hora of the day is ruled by the Lord of the week day. The 2 nd one is ruled by the Lord of the
    6 th week day, counted from the first ruler. The 3 rd Hora is ruled by the Lord of the 6 th week
    day, counted from the 2 nd Hora Lord. Similarly it proceeds in the same manner, till the first
    Hora of the next day is taken over by the Lord of that day himself."
    Brihatparasarahorasastra
    https://archive.org/stream/Parashara...Ebook_djvu.txt

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