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Thread: Ancient DNA evidences for Indo-Iranian origin in Scandinavia

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Well yes, those who believe in Steppe theory for all IE and Indo-Iranian will face the problem that R1a is too insignificant to explain the Iranian half of it.
    Hence Iranics are more or less just culturally IE from their perspective.
    Iran has been certainly one of the earliest lands of IE people, but Centum, not Satem. In Hajji Firuz tepe in the northwest of Iran ancient DNA sample of R1b-Z2103 from the 3rd millennium BC or even earlier has been found.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Iran has been certainly one of the earliest lands of IE people, but Centum, not Satem. In Hajji Firuz tepe in the northwest of Iran ancient DNA sample of R1b-Z2103 from the 3rd millennium BC or even earlier has been found.
    Nope, that sample has been re-dated to the Iron Age.

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  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos
    Then you'll have no trouble admitting the Etruscans probably have nothing to do with Iranians, right? Because that's what the science on Italy is pointing to right now.
    It is not my claim, as you see I have mentioned my sources about the genetic relations between Tuscans and the original people of Iran.

  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Wishful thinking.

    Iranian languages spread into Iran from Central Asia, and modern Iranians do have a large (~20%) share of the relevant type of ancestry. Duh.

    Please show me your source, the only city in modern Iran which has been mentioned as an Iranian city in Avesta is Rhaga (modern Tehran), Zoroastrians of Tehran are certainly the oldest religious community of Iran, but they have no R1a.


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  7. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Nope, that sample has been re-dated to the Iron Age.
    Iron Age or Bronze Age? I think firstly it was said that it dates back to Neolithic but then it was re-dated to Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Wishful thinking.

    Iranian languages spread into Iran from Central Asia, and modern Iranians do have a large (~20%) share of the relevant type of ancestry. Duh.

    You already explained your view on this and I did mine: "Obviously a Turanian"
    I'm not dogmatic however, it may turn out that it is an early Iranian about to enter the Iranian plateau from what is known to Iranics as Turan.

    You know how the situation is: Steppe supporters thought that Persians and other Iranics were simply drained as a warrior elite until only 20% was left. But now we know that whatever BMAC was, those coming from the Steppe (as the sample you showed), did not really conquer BMAC as one would expect. Chariot riding warriors with high-end bronze weapons did not do what we think they did on their way to India (taking your word here that IA Swat samples are now corrected to R1a).
    Hence non-R1a BMAC --> Persians is creating a problem for Steppe, since special pleading would require that those J2a guys just became assimilated culturally to Iranics.
    The steady long term conflict of Iranics and Turanians/Turkics may show via future aDNA to be responsible for a good part of those 20% Steppe you mentioned.
    So for me both options are still on the table.
    Last edited by Patarames; 06-15-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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    There were no Uralics back then in Scandinavia, the contact zone was most likely south of Urals, near the Sintashta cultural zone, which had Uralics back then, long before the migration into Fennoscandia.

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  12. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by homunculus View Post
    There were no Uralics back then in Scandinavia, the contact zone was most likely south of Urals, near the Sintashta cultural zone, which had Uralics back then, long before the migration into Fennoscandia.
    Linguistically, it is actually the main point, if Indo-Iranians originally lived a land where Uralic people lived, it should be expected that we see many Uralic words in Indo-Iranian but we don't see almost any Uralic word in Indo-Iranian, so they were Uralic people who migrated to a land where Indo-Iranians originally lived, not vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As we know Indo-European language was initially divided into two different branches of Satem and Centum, in all possibility Satem language was originated in the Corded Ware culture and then reached to Sintshta culture:



    Existence of all a large number of Indo-Iranian words in proto-Finno-Ugric language, like the same word of satem "hundred", show that Indo-Iranian existed in the north of Europe, the number of Indo-Iranian loanwords increases in the proto-Finnic and Proto-Samic languages where we see *orja (arya), the self-identifying ethnonym of the Indo-Iranian peoples, in these languages.

    Indo-Iranians called their original land Vaeja, this name is also similar to Vuoja, the name of Gotland in Finnish, also Vāci, the name of Germans in Latvian.

    What we read about Airyana Vaeja in Avesta is almost the same as Fimbulvetr in Norse mythology:

    The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja, by the Vanguhi Daitya. Thereupon came Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), who is all death, and he counter-created the serpent in the river and Winter, a work of the Daevas.

    There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]

    About ancient DNA evidences, I have read that subclades of R1b-U106 have been found both in Samara in Russia and north Pakistan, but I think the more important haplogroup whcih can be related to Indo-Iranian migration from Scandinavia to Pakistan is R1a-Y17491: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

    Are there other ancient DNA evidences for this migration?
    sintashta, IE and Ural language contact (or indo-uralic), coldest weather and snake culture, which seems to mean "altai".

    As far as I know, 4.2ka coldest weather hit the steppe. We need to wait and see aDNA of copper hoard culture near IVC which I think include in altai culture, especially seima turbino. I think andronovo culture never reached to india. It seems to me that 3.5ky ago horse people in central asia started to butcher farming land in east, west and south with maximum brutality and tin weapon supremacy like mongol. I think the proved-PIE people of the celtics, china bronze, aryan and mycenaean is archaeologically and closely related with the seima turbino.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph (post 2 to end)

    The 14 ancient genomes reported here have strong implications for the horse domestication process. First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15). The timing of the underlying admixture event(s) is, however, unknown. Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates (Fig. 2. The domestic horse lineage, thus, experienced a net loss of archaic introgressed tracts within the past ~2.3 ky.
    Last edited by johen; 06-15-2019 at 04:29 PM.

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  16. #20
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    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    What in the name of Odin are you talking about?

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