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Thread: Ancient DNA evidences for Indo-Iranian origin in Scandinavia

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    What in the name of Odin are you talking about?
    I explained whole thing over here:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph

    By the way, the odin would originate in okunevo altai culture, which have the same creator concept of mesoamerica culture, votan:

    okunevo:


    Assertion of a relationship between Votan and Odin is found in the work of the distinguished geographer, who wrote in Vues des Cordillères (1810):
    We have fixed the special attention of our readers upon this Votan, or Wodan, an American who appears in the same family with the Wods or Odins of the Goths and of the people of Celtic origins. Since, according to the learned researches, Odin and Buddha are probably the same person, it is curious to see the names of Bondvar, Wodansdag, and Votan designating in India, Scandinavia, and in Mexico the day of a brief period.[5]
    okunevo third eye culture:


    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...ive-americans/
    Last edited by johen; 06-15-2019 at 07:48 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As we know Indo-European language was initially divided into two different branches of Satem and Centum, in all possibility Satem language was originated in the Corded Ware culture and then reached to Sintshta culture:



    Existence of all a large number of Indo-Iranian words in proto-Finno-Ugric language, like the same word of satem "hundred", show that Indo-Iranian existed in the north of Europe, the number of Indo-Iranian loanwords increases in the proto-Finnic and Proto-Samic languages where we see *orja (arya), the self-identifying ethnonym of the Indo-Iranian peoples, in these languages.

    Indo-Iranians called their original land Vaeja, this name is also similar to Vuoja, the name of Gotland in Finnish, also Vāci, the name of Germans in Latvian.

    What we read about Airyana Vaeja in Avesta is almost the same as Fimbulvetr in Norse mythology:




    About ancient DNA evidences, I have read that subclades of R1b-U106 have been found both in Samara in Russia and north Pakistan, but I think the more important haplogroup whcih can be related to Indo-Iranian migration from Scandinavia to Pakistan is R1a-Y17491: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

    Are there other ancient DNA evidences for this migration?
    I am always open for new ideas if supported by good arguments but nothing what you say is pointing to a Scandinavian origin.

    1. The contact zone between Indo-Iranians and Finno-Ugrians was definitely not in Scandinavia. If this would be true than only Saami and Baltic-Finnic languages would have Proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords but this loanwords seem to exist in all Uraluc languages. Also your opinion that Saami and Finnic have more Aryan loanwords is not really proven by any linguistic studies and just jour personal opinion based on just one word (orya) . So the contact happened during the Proto-Uralic period and Proto-Finno-Ugrians definetely not populated Scandinavia. They are obviously intrusive and arrived much later there.

    2. R1b-U106 was not found in Pakistan. One study published one sample with such a results but the results were simply wrong and the tests poorly done .

    3. The main clade of Indo-Iranians is Z93 and ancient Scandinavia had no Z93.

    4. Archaelogists linked Sintashta with Abashevo which is linked with Fatyanovo-Balanovo which is a eastern CWC subculture. Some other archaelogists linked them with yamnaya which is unlikely in my opinion but i have not heard of any archaeologists linking them with Scandinavia.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-15-2019 at 06:08 PM.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  5. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    I am always open for new ideas if supported by good arguments but nothing what you say is pointing to a Scandinavian origin.

    1. The contact zone between Indo-Iranians and Finno-Ugrians was definitely not in Scandinavia. If this would be true than only Saami and Baltic-Finnic languages would have Proto-Indo-Iranian loanwords but this loanwords seem to exist in all Uraluc languages. Also your opinion that Saami and Finnic have more Aryan loanwords is not really proven by any linguistic studies and just jour personal opinion based on just one word (orya) . So the contact happened during the Proto-Uralic period and Proto-Finno-Ugrians definetely not populated Scandinavia. They are obviously intrusive and arrived much later there.

    2. R1b-U106 was not found in Pakistan. One study published one sample with such a results but the results were simply wrong and the tests poorly done .

    3. The main clade of Indo-Iranians is Z93 and ancient Scandinavia had no Z93.

    4. Archaelogists linked Sintashta with Abashevo which is linked with Fatyanovo-Balanovo which is a eastern CWC subculture. Some other archaelogists linked them with yamnaya which is unlikely in my opinion but i have not heard of any archaeologists linking them with Scandinavia.
    About proto-Indo-Iranian words in proto-Finnic, it is certainly not my personal opinion, for example look at these proto-Finnic words:

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...o-Finnic/varsa

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...to-Finnic/jüvä

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...o-Finnic/tarna

    They don't exist in other Uralic languages, so it can't be said that they relate to the contact zone between Indo-Iranians and Finno-Ugrians.

    About R1a-Z93, I don't deny that it also relates to the Indo-Iranian migration to south Asia, however it can be related to Turkic migrations too, but as I said there are also other subclades of R1a which show a migration from the north of Europe to this region.
    Other than R1b-U106 in Pakistan, there is also another one in Samara, also another north European subclade of R1b in Afghanistan, and a north European subclade of I2a2 in Turkmenistan. I see no reason that we say all of them are wrong!!
    Last edited by Cyrus; 06-15-2019 at 08:04 PM.

  6. #24
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    You don't see any reason why they are wrong? IMO, I see a few reasons

    In regards to the R-U106, R-P311, and I2 guys from the South/Central Asian pre-print.

    Below, let's look at Loebanr_IA S8998.E1.L1: (I've bolded the consistent calls and highlighted inconsistent calls in red)
     

    Sample ID - Hg - Ancestral (-ve) - Derived (+ve)
    S8998.E1.L1 A00 36 0
    S8998.E1.L1 A0-T 0 12
    S8998.E1.L1 A0 16 0
    S8998.E1.L1 A1 0 6
    S8998.E1.L1 A0a 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 A0b 12 0
    S8998.E1.L1 A1a 8 0
    S8998.E1.L1 A1b 0 4
    S8998.E1.L1 A0a1 9 1
    S8998.E1.L1 A0a2 4 0
    S8998.E1.L1 A1b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 BT 1 194
    S8998.E1.L1 CT 1 104

    S8998.E1.L1 DE 15 0
    S8998.E1.L1 CF 0 2
    S8998.E1.L1 E 74 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D 25 0
    S8998.E1.L1 C 79 1
    S8998.E1.L1 F 0 13
    S8998.E1.L1 D1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D2 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 GHIJK 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 G 93 0
    S8998.E1.L1 HIJK 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b2 19 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H 17 0
    S8998.E1.L1 IJK 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 D1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b2a 19 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H2 4 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H3 88 0
    S8998.E1.L1 IJ 6 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 D1a2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1d1 20 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b2a2 4 0
    S8998.E1.L1 I 57 0
    S8998.E1.L1 J 63 1
    S8998.E1.L1 LT/K1 10 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1d1a 46 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1d1b 5 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a1 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1b1 103 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1b2 20 0
    S8998.E1.L1 L/K1a 36 1
    S8998.E1.L1 T/K1b 30 0
    S8998.E1.L1 NO/K2a 4 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2c 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2d 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1a2b1 4 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a1d 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a2a 7 1
    S8998.E1.L1 H1b2a 43 0
    S8998.E1.L1 NO1 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 P/K2b2 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 D1b1a2b1a 4 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a1d1 43 1
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a1d2 43 0
    S8998.E1.L1 H1a2a1 42 0
    S8998.E1.L1 T1a 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 N/K2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 O/K2a2 28 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2b1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 M/K2b1d 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 P1/K2b2a 0 9
    S8998.E1.L1 T1a1 7 0
    S8998.E1.L1 T1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 N1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 O1 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 O2 5 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2b1a1 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2b1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 K2b1a3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 S/K2b1a4 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 M1 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 M2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 Q/K2b2a1 10 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R/K2b2a2 0 25
    S8998.E1.L1 R1 12 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1 6 1
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a 10 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1c 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a2 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a 11 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a2b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2 17 1
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a2b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a2b2b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a2b2c 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a2 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a2b2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a2b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b2a1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b2a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b2a2b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R2a3a2b2a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a1b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a2b3a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b2a2b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1d 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1e 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2d 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2f 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a2a1a1b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a1a1a3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1g2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a5 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a2c1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1b1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b3a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b3c 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1h 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1j 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2e1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2e1c 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a2c1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1j1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k1 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2a1d 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1b 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g3c 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i1a 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2a1d2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b5 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b1b3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b1 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b4 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1 5 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1l1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a2a1a1c2b1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1b4c 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b1b1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b4a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2d1b 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1a 3 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a2a2a2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a2b1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 0 1
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b3a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b2b2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3a1 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g2a1a3 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a 6 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1e 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b1b4a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g2a1a2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g2a1a2b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a 2 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4b2 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1a1a1a2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1b1a2a1b1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4b2a 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1e3a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a2a1 1 0
    S8998.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4b1a1a 1 0

    We can clearly see inconsistent calls upstream of this U106 subclade (Loebanr is not even positive for R1, R1b or R1b1). This sample is at best some kind of R, perhaps some kind of R2 (this makes sense since S8997 was R2, S8997 also shares the same mtDNA Hg with S8998, W3a1b) IMHO, most definitely not U106. I looked at S8997 for fun too and he has 2 negative calls for R2a, so that's a bit dodgy too.

    Next let's look at Darra-i-Kur:
     

    Sample ID - Hg - Ancestral (-ve) - Derived (+ve)
    Darra.I.Kur_d A00 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d A0-T 0 2
    Darra.I.Kur_d BT 0 1
    Darra.I.Kur_d A1b1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d DE 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d A1b1b2b 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d D 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E2b 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C2b 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1a2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E2b1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C2e1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1a2b 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C2e1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G1b 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G2a 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H3 5 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1a2a2 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E2b1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C1a1a2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H3a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H3b 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d I 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d LT/K1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C2b1a2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C2e1a1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H1b2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H3b1 3 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1b1b1b1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C1b1a1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H1b2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H3a2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H3a2b 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1b1a1a1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1b1a1a1c 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d I1a3 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d I2a2 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1a2b1a1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1b1b1a1b1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d C1b1a1a1a1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H1a1d2c2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1b1a1a1c2b2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G2a2a1a2a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G2a2b2b1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H1a1d2b2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d I1a2a1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O2a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d Q1b 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d E1b1a1a1c2c1a 2 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d H1a1d2c1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O2a2b 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d Q1b2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G2a2b2a1a1c2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d T1a3b2a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O1b1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d Q1a2c 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d Q1b2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G2a2b2a1a1a2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O1a1a1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O2a2b2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O1b1a1a1a2 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O1b1a1a1b1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d O2a2b1a1a6b 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1a1a1b2a2a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a1a2a1a 0 1
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a1a2a1a1c3 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a1a2a1a2a3 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b3a 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1 1 0
    Darra.I.Kur_d R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a 1 0

    To include more info on Darra-i Kur, the sample was damaged and had only 36,481 SNP reads (that is quite low), and because of this damage and low reads at best the call is some kind of Haplogroup BT (which doesn't tell us anything really and it would be better to just ignore the Y-data IMHO)

    Now let's look at I1003 who is labelled I2a1a1a (incorrectly IMO) in the pre-print:
     

    Sample ID - Hg - Ancestral (-ve) - Derived (+ve)
    I1003 A00 5 0
    I1003 A0-T 0 1
    I1003 A1a 1 0
    I1003 A0a1 2 0
    I1003 BT 0 7
    I1003 A1b1a 1 0
    I1003 CT 0 3
    I1003 B3 1 0
    I1003 A1b1b2b 1 0
    I1003 B2a 1 0
    I1003 E 11 0
    I1003 D 1 0
    I1003 C 6 0
    I1003 E2 1 0
    I1003 E1a 5 0
    I1003 E2b 3 0
    I1003 G 3 0
    I1003 E1a1 4 0
    I1003 E1a2 2 0
    I1003 C1b2 1 0
    I1003 C2e2 1 0
    I1003 G2 1 0
    I1003 E1a2a 1 0
    I1003 E1b1b 1 0
    I1003 D1b2a 1 0
    I1003 C1b2a 2 0
    I1003 C2b1a 1 0
    I1003 G2a 1 0
    I1003 H2 1 0
    I1003 H3 3 0
    I1003 IJ 1 0
    I1003 E1a2a2 2 0
    I1003 E1b1a1 1 0
    I1003 E1b1b2 1 0
    I1003 D1b1d1 1 0
    I1003 C2e2a1 1 0
    I1003 H3a 3 0
    I1003 H3b 2 0
    I1003 I 3 1
    I1003 J 3 0
    I1003 LT/K1 1 0
    I1003 E1b1b1d 1 0
    I1003 D1b1d1a 3 0
    I1003 C1b1a1a 2 0
    I1003 C1b1a2b 1 0
    I1003 C2b1a2a 2 0
    I1003 G2a2a 1 0
    I1003 H1b1 10 1
    I1003 H1b2 4 0
    I1003 H3a1 3 0
    I1003 H3a2 3 0
    I1003 H3b1 4 0
    I1003 I1 2 0 (highlighted this for another example)
    I1003 L/K1a 4 0
    I1003 T/K1b 2 0
    I1003 E1a2a1b1 1 0
    I1003 C1b1a1a1 1 0
    I1003 G2a1a1 2 0
    I1003 G2a2b1 1 0
    I1003 H1b2a 3 0
    I1003 H3a2b 4 0
    I1003 J2a 0 1
    I1003 J2b 1 0
    I1003 D1b1d1a1a 1 0
    I1003 G2a2b2b 1 0
    I1003 H1a1d1 3 0
    I1003 H1a1d2 2 0
    I1003 H1a2a1 2 0
    I1003 H3a2a2 1 0
    I1003 O/K2a2 1 0
    I1003 K2b1b 1 0
    I1003 E1b1b1a1a1 2 0
    I1003 J2a1b 1 0
    I1003 M1 1 0
    I1003 Q/K2b2a1 1 0
    I1003 R/K2b2a2 0 1
    I1003 E1b1a1a1c2a 1 0
    I1003 E1b1a1a1c2b 1 0
    I1003 E1b1a1a1d1a 1 0
    I1003 E1b1b1b2a1b 1 0
    I1003 H1a1d2c2 2 0
    I1003 I2a1b1 1 0
    I1003 T1a1a 1 0
    I1003 O2a 1 0
    I1003 E1b1a1a1c2c2 1 0
    I1003 H1a1d2c2a 1 0
    I1003 I2a1a1a 0 1
    I1003 Q1b 1 0
    I1003 E1b1a1a1c2c1b 1 0
    I1003 E1b1a1a1c2c3c 1 0
    I1003 G2a2b2a1a1b 1 0
    I1003 O2a2b 1 0
    I1003 Q1b1 2 0
    I1003 Q1b2 3 0
    I1003 G2a1a1a1a1a1 1 0
    I1003 I1a3a1a1c 0 1
    I1003 O1b1a1 2 0
    I1003 Q1a1a 1 0
    I1003 R1b1a 1 0
    I1003 G2a2b2a1a1b1a 1 0
    I1003 O1b1a2a 1 0
    I1003 O1b1a2b 1 0
    I1003 O1b2a1a 2 0
    I1003 Q1a1b1 1 0
    I1003 E1b1a1a1c1a1c1a1 1 0
    I1003 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1 1 0
    I1003 T1a1a1b2b2 1 0
    I1003 O2a1c1a5 1 0
    I1003 R1b1a1a2 1 0
    I1003 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a1 1 0
    I1003 N1c1a1a1a1 1 0
    I1003 O1b1a1a1a1 1 0
    I1003 O2a2b1a2a1a3 1 0
    I1003 O2a2b1a2a1a3b 1 0
    I1003 R1a1a1b1a2b3a 1 0
    I1003 O2a2b1a2a1a3b2b1 1 0
    I1003 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a 1 0
    I1003 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b 1 0

    As you can see I1003 is negative for IJ and I-M170 (3 negative to 1 positive). This sample is at best some kind of CT in my opinion.

    Now let's look at S8527.E1.L1 (labelled I2a2a2a in the pre-print)
     

    Sample ID - Hg - Ancestral (-ve) - Derived (+ve)
    S8527.E1.L1 A00 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 BT 0 6
    S8527.E1.L1 CT 0 2

    S8527.E1.L1 A1b1b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 DE 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 D 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a 4 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E2b 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a1 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C1b2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C2e2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C1b2a 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2b 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H3 3 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E2b1a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 D1b1d1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C2e1b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C2e2a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H3a 3 0
    S8527.E1.L1 J 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 D1b1d1a 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2a1a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H1b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H1b2 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H3a1 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H3b1 5 0
    S8527.E1.L1 T/K1b 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2a1b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2b1a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1b1b2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G1a1a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H1b2a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H3a2b 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2a1b1a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2a2b2b 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H3a2a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 I2a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1a2b1a1a1 3 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1a1a1c1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1b1b2a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 L1a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R/K2b2a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1a1a1c2b 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 H1a1d2c2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1a1a1c2b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 C1b1a1a1a1a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 I2a2a2a 0 1
    S8527.E1.L1 Q1a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 Q1b 2 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1a1a1c2c3c 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2a2b2a1a1a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 Q1b1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 Q1b2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1a1a1c2c3a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 E1b1a1a1c2c3a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 O1b1a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1c 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 O2a2b1a1b 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 Q1a2a1b2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R2a3a2b2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 O1b1a1a1a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1a1a1b1a3a1 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1d 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 O2a2b1a2a1a3b2b2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a2 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4a 1 0
    S8527.E1.L1 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a 1 0


    This sample is negative for I2a2 and there is no data for IJ, I, I2 or I2a let alone anything one level above I2a2a2a. At best it is some kind of CT. From what I've heard from Narasimhan's twitter feed they used a new software for the Ycalls and the software basically looked for the furthest downstream SNP on the Ytree, but didn't exactly look for consistency upstream. Anyways, this pre-print has been revised last I heard and will eventually be published sometime in the future with its revisions.

    Please provide your source for R-U106 in Samara.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    By the way, the odin would originate in okunevo altai culture...
    ...Since, according to the learned researches, Odin and Buddha are probably the same person,
    Ummm, what? Okunevo is like 2000BC, Buddha is 500BC?
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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  10. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean
    Please provide your source for R-U106 in Samara.
    These are in Russian: http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg407614

    Google translate:

    Hello. Today the XIV Samara Archaeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard.
    Khokhlov A.A. Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural period of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists.
    In his report Khokhlov A.A. introduced into the scientific revolution until the unpublished data of the Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both Mariupol and Hvalyn features, and belongs to 4th quarter of the 5th millennium BC. All samples analyzed were of the uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R - P312 / S116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Mito to haplogroups U2, U4, U5. In Khvalynsky burial grounds (1 half IV. BC) anthropological material is more diverse. In addition to the uraloid substrate, European broad-faced and southern European variants are recorded. R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 are added to the mito T2a1b, H2a1 by the haplogroups.
    Pakistani haplogroup is also exactly the same R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Saying they are the same by coincidence sounds like a joke!

  11. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains
    3. The main clade of Indo-Iranians is Z93 and ancient Scandinavia had no Z93.
    As I see some main subclades of Z93 which can be traced back to the Corded Ware culture exist in Scandinavia, like R1a-Y34351: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y34351/ Another subclade of this haplogroup exists in India which also shows a migration from Scandinavia to south Asia.

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As I see some main subclades of Z93 which can be traced back to the Corded Ware culture exist in Scandinavia, like R1a-Y34351: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y34351/ Another subclade of this haplogroup exists in India which also shows a migration from Scandinavia to south Asia.
    No , the existence of rare basal clades among few individuals probes exactly nothing . Some of the most basal R1a was found in Yemen and Egypt but that does mean R1a is from these places. Rare clades could arrive to this region in endless ways. You need to look at ancient DNA and not modern dna, which was effected by bottle necks and founder effects. R1a Z93 was found among ancient Sintashta, Poltavka (outliner) , Andronovo and maybe Sredny Stog. Scandinavia is irrelevant here. Seeing the origin of Indo-Iranians in Scandinavia sounds like weird 19th germanocentric fantasies which unfortunately not fully died out.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 06-16-2019 at 09:37 AM.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    No , the existence of rare basal clades among few individuals probes exactly nothing . Some of the most basal R1a was found in Yemen and Egypt but that does mean R1a is from these places. Rare clades could arrive to this region in endless ways. You need to look at ancient DNA and not modern dna, which was effected by bottle necks and founder effects. R1a Z93 was found among ancient Sintashta, Poltavka (outliner) , Andronovo and maybe Sredny Stog. Scandinavia is irrelevant here. Seeing the origin of Indo-Iranians in Scandinavia sounds like weird 19th germanocentric fantasies which unfortunately not fully died out.
    In this thread I actually just want to talk about ancient DNA evidences, the fact is that for many reason I believe R1a-Z93 relates mostly to Turko-Mongol migrations to south Asia in the last 2,000 years, rather than Indo-Iranian migrations, if you believe otherwise, please show me ancient DNA evidences.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    In this thread I actually just want to talk about ancient DNA evidences, the fact is that for many reason I believe R1a-Z93 relates mostly to Turko-Mongol migrations to south Asia in the last 2,000 years, rather than Indo-Iranian migrations, if you believe otherwise, please show me ancient DNA evidences.
    Here...



    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/...ta-people.html

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     aaronbee2010 (06-18-2019),  Agamemnon (06-16-2019),  Amerijoe (06-16-2019),  Hando (06-20-2019),  JMcB (06-16-2019),  peternorth (06-17-2019),  Psynome (06-17-2019),  spruithean (06-16-2019)

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