Page 1 of 17 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 167

Thread: DF27/Z195/DF17 IN IBERIA AND WESTERN EUROPE

  1. #1

    DF27/Z195/DF17 IN IBERIA AND WESTERN EUROPE

    The purpose of this thread is to pinpoint the origin of this haplogroup DF27/Z195/DF17. Its dispersal throughout western Europe with a high dense coincidence in NE Spain and basque country sheds light as a possible migration terminal locations, but not origin(?). Welcome, Bienvenidos, Benvenuti, endietorri, Bienvenue, benvinguts, Céad míle fáilte, Willkommen
    Last edited by jaumemiquel; 06-18-2019 at 03:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,728
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA
    T2f3

    This topic isn't really "General," and has been addressed on numerous existing threads. The most specific (but not the most recently updated) would be here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-did-it-expand

    In recent weeks DF27 was included in a broader discussion that almost certainly will be revived when the referenced study becomes available: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post574724

    According to this lengthy and informative post by Heber, the Cassidy dissertation is embargoed until May 2020: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post497168

    I think you are aware of the first two suggestions, certainly of the second one -- but not everybody who might see your new thread would have any reason to be. So I just mention them, and suggest that the General category isn't the place for such a DF27-specific investigation.
    Last edited by razyn; 06-18-2019 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Added reference to the embargo ending date.

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     Lusitano (06-23-2019),  Ruderico (06-18-2019),  Tomenable (06-20-2019)

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    This topic isn't really "General," and has been addressed on numerous existing threads. The most specific (but not the most recently updated) would be here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-did-it-expand

    In recent weeks DF27 was included in a broader discussion that almost certainly will be revived when the referenced study becomes available: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post574724

    According to this lengthy and informative post by Heber, the Cassidy dissertation is embargoed until May 2020: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post497168

    I think you are aware of the first two suggestions, certainly of the second one -- but not everybody who might see your new thread would have any reason to be. So I just mention them, and suggest that the General category isn't the place for such a DF27-specific investigation.

    Thank You Razin, The purpose of my thread is to invite more feedback from the iberian (Spain and Portugal) side of the coin as i discern a bit of rejection (in general) and bias to the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been iberian in origin or insitu. All the threads i read of people who have DF27/Z195 noth of parallel 45 in Europe appear to be in awe or denial that their ancestor may have something to to with SPAIN (that county south of the Pyrenees mountains)...ohhhh there i said it. I hear comments such as "how come i have iberian in my dna?" or " df27 cannot be Iberian"...so the post stays where it is!

  5. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    954
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    DF27>CTS4065>FG23196
    mtDNA
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by jaumemiquel View Post
    Thank You Razin, The purpose of my thread is to invite more feedback from the iberian (Spain and Portugal) side of the coin as i discern a bit of rejection (in general) and bias to the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been iberian in origin or insitu. All the threads i read of people who have DF27/Z195 noth of parallel 45 in Europe appear to be in awe or denial that their ancestor may have something to to with SPAIN (that county south of the Pyrenees mountains)...ohhhh there i said it. I hear comments such as "how come i have iberian in my dna?" or " df27 cannot be Iberian"...so the post stays where it is!
    It is about geography and Ydna relationships, really. DF27, U152, and DF99 share a parent. This parent shares a parent with L21 and a few other smaller clades. P312 shares a parent with U106. This parent shares a parent with Z2103/Z2105. R1b shares a lineage with R1a. Their parent, R shares a parent with Q, which is P1. This whole time we are moving gradually east, as we go further back towards the root of the tree. The oldest R was found in Siberia. Q is the main lineage among Native Americans. In Ancient Dna we don't see P312 in Iberia the Bronze Age. The oldest DF27 found was in Germany. The oldest U152 was also found in Germany. I think some DF27 entered Iberia pretty early. Maybe around the same time as the Sicily samples that were Z195, around 2300BCE, maybe 2400BCE for Iberia, but that is off memory. But based on how far and wide DF27 is found today, not all of DF27 went into Iberia. I can tell you that outside of Iberia, DF27 is densest in Southern France, in modern populations. According to one study, that I have a spreadsheet for P312(xL21xU152) was found at the following:

    Bouches du Rhone (at mouth): 32.4%
    Var (coastal, E of Rhone): 35.3%
    Vaucluse (upstream Rhone): 29.5%
    Alpes de Haute Provence: 29%
    Last edited by Webb; 06-18-2019 at 08:25 PM.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Webb For This Useful Post:

     Drewcastle (06-18-2019),  moesan (06-24-2019)

  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    It is about geography and Ydna relationships, really. DF27, U152, and DF99 share a parent. This parent shares a parent with L21 and a few other smaller clades. P312 shares a parent with U106. This parent shares a parent with Z2103/Z2105. R1b shares a lineage with R1a. Their parent, R shares a parent with Q, which is P1. This whole time we are moving gradually east, as we go further back towards the root of the tree. The oldest R was found in Siberia. Q is the main lineage among Native Americans. In Ancient Dna we don't see P312 in Iberia the Bronze Age. The oldest DF27 found was in Germany. The oldest U152 was also found in Germany. I think some DF27 entered Iberia pretty early. Maybe around the same time as the Sicily samples that were Z195, around 2300BCE, maybe 2400BCE for Iberia, but that is off memory. But based on how far and wide DF27 is found today, not all of DF27 went into Iberia. I can tell you that outside of Iberia, DF27 is densest in Southern France, in modern populations. According to one study, that I have a spreadsheet for P312(xL21xU152) was found at the following:

    Bouches du Rhone (at mouth): 32.4%
    Var (coastal, E of Rhone): 35.3%
    Vaucluse (upstream Rhone): 29.5%
    Alpes de Haute Provence: 29%
    Thanks a lot Webb. So those areas are along the French Mediterranean side...is there any SNP's and haplogroups known for the West Atlantic side of France (ancient Aquitaine)? I've heard that Aquitainian is the parent of basque languages. any relations amongst basques from Spain and Pyrénées-Atlantiques peoples?

  8. #6
    Administrator
    Posts
    1,360
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    DF27
    mtDNA
    V-c5

    New Zealand Croatia Bosnia and Herzegovina Poland England Ireland
    I've shifted this to a more appropriate forum section.
    Known ancestry - English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Croatian, Bosnian, Ashkenazi, Polish and Māori.


    Hidden Content

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BalkanKiwi For This Useful Post:

     razyn (06-19-2019),  Ruderico (06-19-2019),  Scarlet Ibis (06-19-2019),  Webb (06-18-2019)

  10. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by BalkanKiwi View Post
    I've shifted this to a more appropriate forum section.
    please elaborate...
    Last edited by jaumemiquel; 06-19-2019 at 01:25 AM. Reason: can't see link

  11. #8
    Administrator
    Posts
    1,360
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    DF27
    mtDNA
    V-c5

    New Zealand Croatia Bosnia and Herzegovina Poland England Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by jaumemiquel View Post
    please elaborate...
    Your question is related to DF27. I've moved your thread to the DF27 section of the forum where those who discuss this regularly will be able to see it, and reply appropriately.
    Known ancestry - English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Croatian, Bosnian, Ashkenazi, Polish and Māori.


    Hidden Content

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to BalkanKiwi For This Useful Post:

     Scarlet Ibis (06-19-2019)

  13. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    954
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    DF27>CTS4065>FG23196
    mtDNA
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by jaumemiquel View Post
    please elaborate...
    It’s the rules. Razyn suggested moving to you because it is the rules. It’s not an infraction or anything. Threads should be started in the appropriate category. A thread about DF27 should probably be in the DF27 subcategory. The administrators move threads to different subcategories, periodically, if they think that is where the thread should be. Razyn, my favorite sun dried grape, is very knowledgeable about DF27. He, and a few more of us were testing before there was a DF27 to link SRY2627, DF17, Z209, and M153 together. We were pretty lucky because we were all under Z195/Z196. When they finally released DF27 for stand alone testing, many people were stuck at DF27 for a very long time. These were mainly the guys who are ZZ12, which is the slightly larger brother of Z195/Z196. But because M153 and SRY2627 were quickly labeled the Basque/Iberian markers, that is still what people assume today. As you may know, DF27 is now the second largest P312 super clade, using modern tester’s numbers in the various P312 subclade projects. From time to time someone joins the forum here and jumps right in with the DF27 originating in Iberia and it starts some heated exchange. Not because people don’t like Iberia, but because of the evidence. The evidence I mentioned above about geography and relationships. P312 is often referred to as the Bell Beaker people. This is sort of causes confusion, because of the pots. The whole beaker package is different than just a pot. It’s becoming more evident that P312 is most likely the vector for the start of the Italic/Celtic language tree. The relationship between P312 and it’s brother, U106, genetically mirrors the relationship between Italic/Celtic and Germanic. It’s probably a little messier than my simplistic explanation, but it is efficient. As more evidence mounts with aDna, it is looking like we need to start looking east for the birthplace of P312. Some people think the Eurasian Steppes. Some around the mouth of the Danube. I tend to favor the Hungary area. Who knows. But I don’t think DF27 was born in Iberia. I do think some DF27 men arrived early and were successful. Followed by more subsequent waves of DF27 men through the Bronze Age and Iron Age. A lot depends on getting more evidence from France and Central Europe.
    Last edited by Webb; 06-19-2019 at 04:02 PM.

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Webb For This Useful Post:

     moesan (06-24-2019),  razyn (06-19-2019),  Ruderico (06-19-2019),  Scarlet Ibis (06-19-2019)

  15. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,728
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by jaumemiquel View Post
    The purpose of my thread is to invite more feedback from the iberian (Spain and Portugal) side of the coin as i discern a bit of rejection (in general) and bias to the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been iberian in origin or insitu.
    This isn't a very new purpose, or unique to you. I'll paste in a partial quotation (of myself, 2 1/2 years ago) linking to one of the threads on which we got fairly specific -- although this conversation happened not to involve DF17 or its subclades. It's part of the "long" (as genetic genealogy goes) history we've had of discussing Basques, starting on the now defunct DNA-Forums and (to a lesser degree) on Eupedia. I believe the Basques are at least mentioned on 26 of this (Anthrogenica) DF27 subforum's threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    ... in 2011, the M153 "Basque Cluster" was directly below P312; and all P312* people from the Deep Clade test of that vintage (myself included) were tested for M153. So YBrowse shows, for M153, 3842 tested and 33 derived... FTDNA (for instance) has learned not to sell that test. But many people have not learned how young M153 is, or how recently the Basques became a DF27+ majority population.
    The following post of mine isn't about genetics, but is otherwise potentially of Basque interest -- so I'll just link it here, where it might get a bit more play than where I had to post it earlier today, under "The Arts." https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ge-Fellowships

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     Webb (06-19-2019)

Page 1 of 17 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 619
    Last Post: 05-10-2018, 11:20 AM
  2. R1b DF27>Z196>Z272>DF17
    By Roy Paul in forum R1b-DF27
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 10-14-2017, 08:16 PM
  3. Replies: 23
    Last Post: 09-13-2014, 04:58 PM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-28-2013, 05:49 PM
  5. Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-24-2013, 01:28 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •