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Thread: DF27/Z195/DF17 IN IBERIA AND WESTERN EUROPE

  1. #161
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    Why Sicily?

    I think one has to keep in mind the overall prehistoric pattern in Europe:

    1. Small bands of hunter-gatherers wandered the continent during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic Periods;

    2. About 9,000 years ago, Neolithic farmers from the Near East arrived in southern Europe and began spreading throughout the rest of the continent, at first displacing but then mixing with the native hunter-gatherers, so that by about 5,500 years ago most Europeans were a combination of those two elements;

    3. About 5000 years ago, Indo-European pastoralists from the Pontic-Caspian steppe moved west into Europe, affecting a massive change in the European genome, language and culture, so that now by far most Europeans speak an Indo-European language and are a genetic combination of Native Hunter-Gatherer, Early European Farmer, and Steppe Pastoralist.

    It isn't likely that DF27 bucked that progression, closely connected as it is to Kurgan Bell Beaker, which was a product of #3 above.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  2. #162
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    The oldest cases of Df27-Z195 are in Sicily, then they are fundamental to understand the origin of this haplogroup. Until other cases are discovered in Europe, they are the ones that have to serve as a reference and therefore we have to think that Df27-Z195 originated in Sicily. Obviously the current origin of any lineage is provisional, and subject to new discoveries. This provisionality can last days, months or years.

    I8561-Abisso del Vento-C14 dated to 2346-2199 calBCE 298 (3825±20 BP, PSUAMS-4873) (2.272 AC)- I3123-BU31, grave 3031, cranium III- Skull, with the left portion of the frontal bone missing, extremely brachycephalic (“planoccipital”)- The skull sutures are open. Morphologically the individual is inferred to be a male. C14 dated to 2287-2044 calBCE (3760±30 BP, 138 PSUAMS-3892)- (2.165 BC)-

    Evidently we know that the Z195 arrived in Sicily sailing and carrying the BB culture with them, and we have to bear in mind that this culture only extended to small regions of the island and that it is considered there as an anecdotal culture that lasted only a few hundred years.

    So, we can only speculate with the point of origin of that migration. Obviously we have to take as a starting point the type of pottery found in the deposits, and this track, points to Iberia. But obviously, this pottery is also found in the south of France, in Sardinia, and in northern Italy, then we can not exclude that these gentlemen traveled from any of those regions. We also have to take into account the trade and colonization routes used in the western Mediterranean from the Neolithic. Putting this knowledge together we have sufficient evidence to suppose that Z195 was a relatively common lineage in the Western Mediterranean in the 24th and 23rd centuries, and these data are very close to the estimated origin for the haplogroup.

  3. #163
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    A couple of points: that R1b-DF27 Kurgan Bell Beaker skeleton from Germany, I0806, is slightly older, and Sicily was a receiver of Kurgan Bell Beaker migrants, a destination on the southern margin, not a point of origin.

    Sicily is not thought of as any kind of source of KBB culture, pottery styles, weapons, etc., either.

    It isn't likely that DF27 first appeared there.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Ruderico (07-09-2019)

  5. #164
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    Castile and León Spanish Empire (1506-1701)
    Well, here we are talking about Df27-Z195 and then the oldest Z195 is in Sicily (2.272 BC)

    Regarding I0806, it appeared in different studies and with different dates- Brotherton et al (2.013-with a date that can be discarded because it was not calibrated), Haak et al (2.015-2.296-2.206 cal BCE-2 Sigma calibrated- 2.251 BC) and Mathieson et al (2.015-2.431-2.150 cal BCE-2 Sigma calibrated-2.290 BC).

    Normally archaeologists choose the calibration that has less variability, because they are more reliable, then we should think that the correct dating for that sample is 2.251 BC, slightly more modern than the Sicilian case. If you prefer to use the one with more variability then the correct dating would be 2,290 BC, slightly older. The discussion is sterile because the two samples (Germany and Sicily) are obviously contemporary. I have already seen that you prefer to consider Quedlinburg as older, I really do not have preferences about it. In any case, I0806 can not serve as a reference for the Sicilian samples because it does not have any SNP downstream Df27, that is, it can not be classified as either Z195 or ZZ12, which means that we still have the Sicilian sample as the most ancient Df27-Z195 of Europe.

    Obviously Sicily is not the source of the BB culture, just a kind of commercial settlement. Regarding the path followed by Z195, he was able to follow the course of the Rhone River, reach the French coast and sail to Sicily. Who knows? We will have to wait for other results in Germany, France or Switzerland to find out. I think we can not rule out any alternative, although the pottery is clearly Iberian/French and not German

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  7. #165
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    YFull shows the tmrca of Z195 as about 4500 ybp or about 2550 BC (using 1950 as “present”), which is also what they have for the tmrca of DF27 itself. If that’s accurate (Who knows?), then it is extremely unlikely that Z195 arose in Sicily, unless one wants to claim Z195 predates Kurgan Bell Beaker there.

    Regarding KBB pottery, I don’t agree that it’s ultimately of Iberian origin. I think van der Waals, Glasbergen, and Lanting were right in deriving it from Corded Ware Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker in the Netherlands.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-09-2019 at 02:28 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. #166
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    Daniel Fernandes et al (2.019). Early Bronze Age: "We find that Sicily_EBA can be fit as Sicily_MN and Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe (15.7 ± 3.5%), in agreement with the Y chromosome evidence of an Iberian affinity. Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only parsimonious fitting second source (Supplementary Table 14), albeit with different proportions of 29.7 ± 3.4% in Sicily_EBA3123, 44.7 ± 3.2% in Sicily_EBA8561, and , 74.2 ± 3.8 in Sicily_EBA11443.

  9. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilerno View Post
    Daniel Fernandes et al (2.019). Early Bronze Age: "We find that Sicily_EBA can be fit as Sicily_MN and Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe (15.7 ± 3.5%), in agreement with the Y chromosome evidence of an Iberian affinity. Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only parsimonious fitting second source (Supplementary Table 14), albeit with different proportions of 29.7 ± 3.4% in Sicily_EBA3123, 44.7 ± 3.2% in Sicily_EBA8561, and , 74.2 ± 3.8 in Sicily_EBA11443.
    Which says what about the origin of Z195? (Except that Fernandes et al seem to be deriving it from Iberia, thus the "Y chromosome evidence of an Iberian affinity".)
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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