Page 2 of 31 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 307

Thread: Rootsi et al. (2013) Ashkenazi Levite R1a Discussion Thread

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    From the Paper:

    R1a-M582 was identified in various populations, with the highest frequency occurring within Iranians collected from the southeastern Kerman population who self-identified as Persians, northwestern Iranian Azeri and in Cilician Anatolian Kurds, at 2.86%, 2.50% and 2.83%, respectively

    The R1a-M582 fellow(s?) may have been ruling elite Khazar(s) who converted to Judaism way back when. We actually have no way of knowing, but my first impulse is not to equate this branch with exiled Israelites quite frankly.
    The paper pretty much argued against it. And the argument seemed quite convincing. There are options other than equating R1a-M582 with Khazars or exiled Israelites.

  2. #12
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Razib Khan has chimed in with The Empire of R1a1a and the Levites: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-empire-o...d-the-levites/

  3. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,462
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G-V2154
    mtDNA (M)
    HV4a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    The paper pretty much argued against it. And the argument seemed quite convincing. There are options other than equating R1a-M582 with Khazars or exiled Israelites.
    Yes. Such as the center of Judaism for a significant part of its history. Mesopotamia/Persia. Judaism has a 2500+ year history in the east.

    Babylonia remained the center of Judaism in the world. The major book defining Rabbinic Judaism, the Babylonian Talmud, was written in Jewish Babylonian Aramaic in Asorestan between the 3rd and 5th centuries. The Babylonian Talmudic academies were all established relatively near to Seleucia-Ctesiphon. The first Talmudic academy was founded in Sura by Rav (175–247) in about 220. One of the most influential Talmudic teachers, Rava (270–350), who was influenced by both Manichaean polemic and Zoroastrian theology, studied in another Talmudic academy at Pumbedita.
    Last edited by Humanist; 12-18-2013 at 06:38 PM.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Yes. Such as the center of Judaism for a significant part of its history. Mesopotamia/Persia. Judaism has a 2500+ year history in the east.
    I sincerely doubt Babylonians carried any R1a clade. Ultimately M582 is connected to some sort of Iranian speaking population whether West Asian or Scythians from the steppe imo.

  5. #15
    Although the Mittani could be another option.

  6. #16
    I also doubt Z2124+ and Z2125+ can be anything other than Central Asian.

  7. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,778
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a2 - FGS
    Y-DNA (M)
    ?
    mtDNA (P)
    I2

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    The paper pretty much argued against it. And the argument seemed quite convincing. There are options other than equating R1a-M582 with Khazars or exiled Israelites.
    No it didn't if you actually read it. It stated that the R1a1a was not the result of converted Poles, which all of us in 2013 knew already. Go back and read it son.

    Khazars are a mysterious people whom we have very little information about. Perhaps the ruling elite were more like Persians. It's certainly a plausible scenario.

    The data doesn't support a Levant origin though. The Middle East is a vast territory...
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 12-18-2013 at 06:52 PM.

  8. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,462
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G-V2154
    mtDNA (M)
    HV4a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I sincerely doubt Babylonians carried any R1a clade. Ultimately M582 is connected to some sort of Iranian speaking population whether West Asian or Scythians from the steppe imo.
    From a past post of mine:

    In Babylon, the Indo-European (Greco-Macedonian), Indo-Iranian IE (Persian), West Semitic (Canaanite), and Sumero-Akkadian (Mesopotamian) worlds came together, in one place, at the same time, perhaps for the first time.
    Edit:

    I should add that I am not defining "Babylonian" as you appear to be (i.e. "Semite").

    Also, I said Mesopotamia/Persia. This includes northern Mesopotamia and Iran.
    Last edited by Humanist; 12-18-2013 at 07:23 PM.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    No it didn't if you actually read it. It stated that the R1a1a was not the result of converted Poles, which all of us in 2013 knew already. Go back and read it son.

    Khazars are a mysterious people whom we have very little information about. Perhaps the ruling elite were more like Persians. It's certainly a plausible scenario.

    The data doesn't support a Levant origin though. The Middle East is a vast territory...
    First of all I'm not your son.

    Second maybe you should read it again.

    As David quoted on his blog


    Considering the historical records of Ashkenazi Jews, three potential geographic sources should be considered: the Near East, which was the geographic location for the ancient Hebrews; Europe, which was the residence of the Ashkenazi Jewish Diaspora and the region in which they evolved for nearly two millennia; and the region overlapping with the no longer extant mid-11th Century Khazarian Khaganate, whose ruling class has been suggested to have converted to Judaism18. Our data render the latter source highly unlikely since the Khazarian Khaganate overlapped with the Northern Pontic-Caspian steppe and the North Caucasus region, in which just one Nogay sample carried the R1a-M582 haplogroup (Table 1). Furthermore, the Nogays, formerly a powerful Kipchak Turkic-speaking nomadic confederation, are relatively recent inhabitants of the Caucasus, and the STR haplotype of the sole R1a-M582 Nogay sample lies outside of the Levite cluster. Had the Caucasus region been the source for the Ashkenazi modal lineage, we likely would have found R1a-M582 Y-chromosomes in some of its 20 local populations examined in our sample of more than 2,000 Y-chromosomes (Table 1).

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2013...enazi-r1a.html

    Why would the ruling class have been like Persians? The ruling class would have been more like steppe populations, Central Asians and Caucasians. And so far not much M582 in the North Caucasus. I suspect the same will be true for Central Asia.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    From a past post of mine:



    Edit:

    I should add that I am not defining "Babylonian" as you appear to be (i.e. "Semite").
    I'm not defining Babylonian as Semitic either. I'm trying to say that this clade can ultimately be traced back to Central Asia where Z2124+ likely originated. Of course that doesn't rule out it traveling from Central Asia to Iran to Mesopotamia to Jewish populations.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to newtoboard For This Useful Post:

     Humanist (12-18-2013)

Page 2 of 31 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. New DNA Papers - General Discussion Thread
    By newtoboard in forum General
    Replies: 2641
    Last Post: Yesterday, 07:32 PM
  2. Nepal Related Discussion Thread
    By poi in forum Southern
    Replies: 181
    Last Post: 08-26-2021, 08:32 PM
  3. K1b2b Discussion Thread
    By alchemist223 in forum K
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-31-2021, 10:27 PM
  4. Jewish Discussion Thread
    By Erik in forum Jewish
    Replies: 261
    Last Post: 05-17-2018, 04:47 PM
  5. HV13 Discussion Thread
    By Humanist in forum HV
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-08-2015, 02:02 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •